Does everyone else get this reaction from their JW family when discussing objections to the religion?

by jambon1 33 Replies latest jw friends

  • bluecanary

    Show her the research you have done on logical fallacies: particularly the slippery slope.

  • TD

    Unless you are arguing a matter of pure mathematics, taking an assertion "to the extreme" is usually a combination of two logical fallacies; the Strawman argument + Denial of the exception.

    This form is actually called the "Extreme man." By characterizing your position through the use of an outrageous, extreme scenario, (Denial of the exception) the one committing this fallacy attempts to make your position easier to refute. But what they actually argue against is a grotesque characture of your position. (Strawman argument)

    As a UBM, I've experienced the exact same thing. Pointing out problems with the JW judicial process:

    1. There is no scriptural justification for the tribunal (i.e. Judicial committee)

    2. There is no scriptural justification for the secrecy of the proceeding. (i.e. Proceeding is based on biblical letters ostensibly written to entire congregations.)

    3. JW's attempt to justify the tribunal using principals of democracy (i.e. Delegate group representing the will of constituency)

    4. JW congregational structure is paternalistc, not democratic; therefore delagate group (Tribunal) cannot represent will of constituency. (Congregation)

    5. It treats major offenses in a manner identical to offenses of a much more trivial nature

    --Usually brings a response similar to what you experienced: "What do you suggest we do? Tolerate wrongdoing?" This is a classic example of the "Extreme man" form of the "Stawman" argument. All it takes is one counter example to refute a universal proposition.

    It's a very predictable and very human response. Knowing this in advance will help you to phrase your observations in a manner where this response is more easily deflected.

    For example, you could preface your observation with the most obvious fallacious objection that will probably be given in response: "I'm not suggesting that wrongdoing should be tolerated, but....."

  • lifelong humanist
    lifelong humanist


    In his reply, leavingwt recommended a book to read that would help (this was also recommended to me by him in a topic I started about helping my wife quit around 1 month ago). I took his advice and bought the book. I think the information contained therein is of a high quality and presents the reader with a strategic approach that has worked in assisting cult members leave not just JWs but others as well. I cannot say yet that applying the points raised have worked for me as of yet, but I'm more optimistic now, and somewhat reassured by the authors firsthand experience of success in what is an extremely difficult area of psychology.

    Whatever you decide - to buy the book or not, good luck to you in what must be an extremely important endeavour on your part to free your wife from the nasty cult of JWs!

  • freedomisntfree

    This may not be the advice that evreyone wants but in all my efforts to talk to jw family and friends and show them the fallacys arguing with me just seems to strengthen their resolve!!! so as agravating as that is as much as i can help it ive stoped talking to them and im trying to lead by example.Like look at my awesome life! you could be free to! and hope some-one clues in.Theres nothing jw's love more then what they perceive as persecution its their bread and butter...

  • daniel-p

    If emotion keeps people in, reason isn't going to get them out.

  • cognac

    I've noticed that. However, I've taken a bit of a different approach with hubby...

    I just become as lazy as possible and he follows suit... Suggest sleeping in, going out, etc instead of meetings. That way, if they do less, more then likely there in less of "cult mode"...

    Then, I read old mags and show him stuff. Or, bring things up that I know he won't take offense to and let him do most of the talking.

    Works wonders for me!

  • logic

    I don't even try with my wife anymore. When you show her logic her head starts to spin. The way some of the

    jws react, encluding my wife,it sort of makes you feel like they are possessed it is kind of spooky. But the way I

    finally shut them down with it being the truth is by showing them that while rutherford was president he wrote

    almost all of the books and other literature, and that he did not get it from the holy spirit but got the information

    from angels by the mind weld method. I have a lot of his books now and just show them the proof. And now

    the society is trying to abandon most of his teachings. Then I make my point of when did it start to become the truth.

    Even the new lite crap doesn't work after this because then it just sounds stupid . But even when you shut

    them down you still aint changed their mind.

    I have now taken the advice 'never argue with a fool because then no one can tell you apart.

  • oompa

    back when i did try, we rarely got to an hour, and she never made any crazy claims.....she just always kept saying the fds will get it right if they are wrong, and that where else could she go, and it is a loving brotherhood, and that i needed meds (nuts), she would get louder and louder and always try to defend with the appropriate WT lingo, and then she would scream, cry, sometimes smack my face off, and storm out of the room crying hysterically......

    i learned real fast after about twenty or thirty such episodes......we now have truce of no religion talk AT ALL! is harder for me to be silent, but i found that after two years of this, she felt closer to god and org than ever before!!! backfire.........oompa

    she will eventually retort with something like "so what you are saying is that we should tolerate paedophiles, rapists & thieves in the organisation then?"

    Pedophiles "are" tollerated in Watchtower World..

    The WBT$ has paid out Millions because of it..


  • jamiebowers

    Outlaw, that's just what I was thinking...

    For instance, if I am refering to the fact that disfellowshipping is a form of extreem punishment & I mention the terrible effects that being d/f'd can have on people, she will eventually retort with something like "so what you are saying is that we should tolerate paedophiles, rapists & thieves in the organisation then?"

    I suppose reading would blow her mind!

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