Did Jesus ever claim Messiahship?

by AK - Jeff 81 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I agree that if your interest is in historical reconstruction, it is not fruitful to accept literary sources at face value; the voice of the author must be distinguished from that of any persons represented in his narrative, such that the very different "voices" of Jesus in the various gospels reflect to a great extent the different views and creative expression of the gospels' writers. The gospels moreover are not straightforward biographies or historiographies; they devote a great deal of narrative to interpreting the meaning of Jesus on account of what is written in the OT.

    But once you start to reconstruct the "historical Jesus" from what is written in the gospels, whatever "Jesus" you come up with depends entirely on your own subjective presuppositions and procedures for sifting through the documentary evidence. One could have criteria that assumes that the gospels are mostly accurate or one could have criteria that leaves very little for historical reconstruction. The most hazardous and speculative part of this enterprise is reconstructing Jesus' assessment of himself. It is just not possible to discern Jesus' mental state and whatever he is reported as saying in the gospels is filtered through (or created by) the writers' own religious views and creativity. So to claim that Jesus never claimed to be a messiah imo goes beyond the evidence. This is different from claiming that it cannot be determined whether Jesus claimed to be a messiah.

    What is more helpful is to examine what first-century Jews actually believed and expected (as it is meaningless to say that the Jews were expecting the Messiah) and then compare how well the gospel portraits of Jesus fit into these messianic paradigms. The reality is that there was a wide continuum of ideas: some expected a Davidic king to restore Judean sovereignty, some expected a heavenly figure to arrive who would bring about divine judgment and God's rulership, some expected a priestly figure to reform the corrupted Temple cult and restore God's favor on Israel, some expected a prophet foretold by Moses who would bring out righteousness by giving the definitive interpretation of the Torah, some expected a figure or figures whose death(s) would bring about redemption for the Jewish nation, some even expected a Gentile messiah who would be appointed to rule the world. For a detailed exploration of these views, see George Nickelsburg's Ancient Judaism and Christian Origins: Diversity, Continuity, and Transformation. The Christian view of Jesus as the Christ combines features of many of these expected figures into a single individual (in the NT, Jesus is seen sometimes in Davidic terms, sometimes in priestly terms, sometimes as the heavenly Son of Man figure, sometimes as a Moses figure who gives the Torah its definitive interpretation, sometimes as a Suffering Servant figure whose death brings salvation to those who believe in him, etc.). It does not seem likely that the historical Jesus (accepting majority opinion on this matter) claimed to be the realization of all these different messianic ideas, and there is no firm evidence outside of the gospels that he made any messianic claim, but it is also not improbable that he did claim something about himself that reflected religious expectations; Josephus mentions many who did so at the same, who sometimes met gruesome ends at the hands of the Roman authorities. If anything at all in the Jesus tradition is historical, it has to be that Jesus was crucified (the one thing mentioned throughout all Christian tradition), and this would indicate that he was put death for sedition (as also the charge "king of the Jews" implies). The fact, while far from conclusive, imo makes the possibility more likely than if we only had Jesus' statements in the gospels to go on. But this is quite different than later christological ideas of Jesus as the Christ.

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    Snow: "Jesus of Nazareth admitted He was the Messiah, first to a non-Jew, and only after being put under oath, to a Jew.That really tells us something, doesn't it?Sylvia"

    I don't think so, Sylvia. Other people made the statement that he was the Messiah. He said "You say that I am". He never said so himself. So was he acknowledging that he was the messiah simply by ommission of facts not stated? Or was he content just to let the people assume.

    If Jesus was a practicing Jew and obeyed the law, then certainly he would know that the first commandment would be "to have no other gods before me." So I don't think he would have actively attempted to usurp the god of the jews and expect that he be more noticed.

    How about this.....the story of all the baby boys killed by Herod when Jesus was born. Do you really think people would have been favorable to him if their child had been killed because of him? People are used to thinking of "christ died for others." In this scenerio, thousands of innocent babies died for him. A bit of a role reversal, don't you think? And what about the "slaughter of the 10,000" after the crucifixion?

    And also, as to whether it's true...it sounds like the same story of Moses being rehashed again in the NT. Pharoah was out to kill all the baby boys when Moses was born. Coincidence of similar stories? Or just a retelling of the same pattern?

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Cameo-d, my attempt was to show that Jesus of Nazareth didn't go around proclaiming His Messiahship to all and sundry.

    There was no need for Him to do that. Jewish Holy Writ had done the job for Him!

    The Samaritan woman could be excused for not knowing, but there was no excuse for the Jewish Chief Priest.

    Sylvia

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    Welcome to the fray, Leo. Always great to see your educated perspective.

    Jeff

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    I agree it likely that Jesus died. I just have no idea if that means anything more than all the other billions of deaths in history.

    Jeff

  • milola
    milola

    I have probably voiced my thoughts before, but I have often felt that the original scrolls were merely a set of laws to keep the general public in line.

    Moral stories and laws.

    I am feeling very cynical today.

  • snowbird
    snowbird
    Welcome to the fray, Leo. Always great to see your educated perspective.
    Jeff

    The rest of us "unlettered and ordinary" yokels be damned, huh?

    Just kidding, AK-Jeff. You knows I likes you.

    Sylvia

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    Cynical is ok, mil. Glad to have opinion here. Isn't it great to have opinions?

    Jeff

  • sir82
    sir82
    I am begining to feel that a great deal of the Gospels are retrospectively creating a legend, a myth to fit a developing religious paradigm.

    I recall reading somewhere, sometime, on this forum, that many (most?) dispassionate scholars hold that the gospels were written in response to Paul's writings, which were the first Christian writings ever. Sort of "giving the other side of the coin" as it were.

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    I love ya' Sylvia. You know that. BTW, I include myself in that lot of uneducated yokels.

    Jeff

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