Did Jesus ever claim Messiahship? (page 2)

PSacramento

Jeff,

Yeah, faith has to play a role in it, no other way around it.

Even if we were to find a scroll. fragment of papyrus dated to the exact tiem of Jesus, written by Jesus, one would still have to take his claims on Faith.

snowbird

On this meager amount of 'evidence' should I place my faith in Jesus?

The Samaritan woman and the Chief Priest had even less evidence, Jeff.

Why don't you come on over to His side? You know you want to do so.

Revelation 3: 19 "The people I love, I call to account—prod and correct and guide so that they'll live at their best. Up on your feet, then! About face! Run after God!

20 -21 "Look at me. I stand at the door. I knock. If you hear me call and open the door, I'll come right in and sit down to supper with you. Conquerors will sit alongside me at the head table, just as I, having conquered, took the place of honor at the side of my Father. That's my gift to the conquerors! MSG

Sylvia

Narkissos

A better approach to this discussion might start with questioning the presupposition that there was one concept of "Messiahship" common to all or even most 1st-century AD Jews. This is definitely not the case. End-time figures of several kinds, whether angelic or human, "anointed" (according to the etymology of "Messiah" or "Christ") or not, on a "kingly" or "priestly" pattern (both kings and priests being called mashiach / khristos), played a part in the expectations of some segments of Judaism (Pharisees, Qumrân) -- and none in others (Sadducees, Philo). The "messiah" profile as developed and standardised both in Christianity and in rabbinical Judaism from the latter part of the 1st century onward, either to suit the Jesus character or against him, can only be retrojected on an early 1st-century figure anachronistically. A historical Jesus might have claimed to be "the messiah" by some specific definition of that term -- but which one?

PSacramento

Jesus's message is one of love, accepteance, tolerance and one of faith and joy, of happiness and tenderness.

Nothing wrong with that.

Sure some of his guys had some views that were very misoginistic (SP?) and seemed to counter his very words, and this happens when zeal takes over and the message gest garples, not lost mind you, but garbled.

Jesus showed us they WE deserve so much better, shoudl treat ourselves so much better, that we are so worthy of His and God's love that he gave himself in pain and death because he loved us so much.

He's a cool dude, he was probably a really good footballer too and we know he rode dinosaurs, that's gotta count for something !!

OUTLAW

Jesus did`nt need a Ship..

He could walk on water..

..................

PSacramento

Narkissos makes a valid point, Jews don't see Jesus as the messiah because, according to them, he didn't fulfill all the requirements of being the Messiah and heralding in the Messionic age.

AK - Jeff

Good point, Nark. And the point is made in the book I quoted in similar way.

In my lay-mind, it is much like attributing the term 'Hero' to another. The widely varigated view of the term, in say, 2000 years, might deny it's relevance to those looking at the one so called. I might view one who helped a child with his math homework as 'heroic'. Others might consider a 'hero' much higher honor, attribitable to those who risked life and limb, or perhaps only to those who lost life or limb in the defense/protection of others.

I am sure that few Christians look at Jesus' messiahship as fitting on the lower end of the continuum you mention. They wish to place it as the absolute pinnacle of that continuum. Yet that does not even imply Jesus' own view, not to mention the very real possibility that he may have not actually ever uttered those words, does it?

Jeff

snowbird

Jesus of Nazareth admitted He was the Messiah, first to a non-Jew, and only after being put under oath, to a Jew.

That really tells us something, doesn't it?

Sylvia

AK - Jeff

Respectfully, SB, the Koran attributes many things to Mohhammed. I accept those things with about as much faith as the things that those writers claim Jesus said.

I suppose part of my point is that, even those scholars who have made a life out of studying Jesus' words, don't all line up and accept that he made those statements. And as pointed out, even if he did, there is wide disparity in what he may have meant by them.

I love Christians, but 99% of them don't think outside the literal interpretation of the particular translation they have at hand. That's ok too, with me. I am not trying to bash them here, including you. You are a dear soul. I am just curious as to why I would ever accept a couple of hearsay statements by a man who lived 2000 years ago, in a book written by men who waited decades to record his words, as faithworthy?

I spoke with the mayor of our city this morning. But if I waited 30 years, long after her death, and with a predetermined motive to elevate her to an extreme position to record them, no matter how sincere I claimed to be, most would doubt the total recall that I insist I had. If I claimed that I saw her turn water into coffee in the coffeeshop this morning, without use of beans, even that would be considered questionable if I waited 30 or 40 years to make such claims. 2000 years from now, it would be considered folly to accept that.

That's the problem I have in this. I know the words are there. How do I attach veracity to them with any seriousness?

Jeff

PSacramento

Let me ask you this Jeff, what evidence would suffice for you?

Did Jesus ever claim Messiahship?

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