Penetrating the Deepest Level- "Jehovah" is God (page 2)

undercover

What this thread is about: What thoughts do you have on penetrating a JW's deepest level of belief that "Jehovah" as defined by WTS is God and WTS must be "right" because they carry HIS name?

It demonstrates the typical deep-seated level of belief of a JW:

A. The Bible is "right."
B. There is a "right" way to serve the God of the Bible.
C. The God of the Bible is "Jehovah."
D. To be serving God "right," you must recognize Jehovah.
E. WTS recognizes Jehovah and uses the Bible, therefore they are the "right" way to serve the God of the Bible.
F. If WTS is "right" then all others are "wrong."
G. Any deviation from this simple "logic" that causes dissonance should just fall back on repeating the steps above.

Based on the levels listed the thread is actually moot.

Nothing you can do or say is going to penetrate the circular reasoning listed.

Then again, my head hurts from too much to drink last night and I just get dizzy trying to follow the circular reasoning...

bluecanary

"If you want to question God or the Bible, then there isn't any point to this discussion" is my wife's answer to such challenges.

What's going to happen if she runs into a Buddhist or a Muslim at the doors? Is she prepared to establish common ground with them and convince them that the Bible is worth listening to? Perhaps, for anyone who wants to go this route, you can offer to help your jw practice their witnessing skills by pretending to be someone from an eastern or pagan or other non-Bible-centric religion.

OnTheWayOut

It`s impossible to argue with logic like that,if the name cannot be discussed..

How about "It's impossible to argue with such a lack of logic?"

I said it's a long haul. I don't mean to cut down arguments/discussions/ideas here. I just want to present the problem.
Certainly, anything that gets inside the deepest level will help.
What I hope to hear from you is something inspiring to work up to the idea that "Jehovah" of the WT is not God.
Dropping hints on where the name came from is a pretty good idea.

I like the thought of taking a name like "brain surgeon" doesn't make one actually capable of brain surgery.

JWoods

One thing about the name (witnesses) that always bothered me, - even as a 12 year old kid when my parents joined - was this:

What on earth does God need "witnesses" for, anyway? He is GOD, for crying out loud. It is not like God is in some kind of celestial traffic court and needs another driver (a mere human at that) to verify he did not run some red light or such.

Of course - now I understand that this is a kind of WTS perversion of the old, old legalistic jingoism of the unforgiving old Testament. But in reality, this name and the surrounding Jehovah-cult really makes for a deep divide between the JWs and anything that could remotely be called conventional christianity - as it relegates Jesus to being just sort of a super-angel waiting in the wings for big daddy to kick some earthly butts.

OnTheWayOut

What's going to happen if she runs into a Buddhist or a Muslim at the doors? Is she prepared to establish common ground with them and convince them that the Bible is worth listening to?

This is true of you and me and most of us that freed ourselves and a few that haven't yet.
I will just speak of my own JW's to address this.

My wife is a social JW. JW's are right in her opinion. She just moves on to the next person if someone believes something else. Conversion is not part of her goal with "worldly" people. "Placing" and studying WT literature with those that do listen- that's all her service is about. She probably figures that God will draw His witnesses to those who are rightly disposed to listening and forget about the rest.

PSacramento

When the actual WT literature says that the name "Jehovah" is NOT the correct one, but just the more identifiable one and witnesses that, supossedly, read all the WT literature still claim that jehovah is the true name of God and not simply one of his names ie: version of YHWH, then what can you expect in terms of a decent debate or discussion?

reniaa

You just don't understand, it isn't Just that 'Jehovah' is God it's that there is just one Almighty God YHWH. It's not that Jw's own the patent on Jehovah we'd be happier if other christian faiths rejected trinity and started using God's name but they don't. They reject it in favour of their triune God or Jesus worship.

Sir isaac newton believed in One God, Milton believed in One God, Arius believed in One God, thousands of 'One Almighty God' christians have died as heretics for the right to believe in One God throughout the centuries. You are not fighting against a cult belief but a historical belief from When deut 6:4 was first written.

Trying to deconstruct someone's belief in the bible and God is not deconstructing a cult but trying to deconstruct their faith in God.

Reniaa

PSacramento

Trinitarians believe in one God, I am not a trinitarian and I know that.

The issue isn't that Jehovah is a name of God, its that the JW claim that it is the TRUE name even though their literature "The divine name that will endure" states otherwise.

OnTheWayOut

Reniaa, you are either a total fraud or you "just don't understand" the religion you so want to be a part of.

All other beliefs are literally demonized. So when you say that "we'd be happier if other christian faiths rejected trinity and started using God's name," all you are doing is confirming the idea that the "we" is right and all others are wrong. WTS doesn't want others to start using any version of "Jehovah." They want people to leave the other religions because they are wrong. They want to recruit them to sell magazines for Watchtower.

Everyone, please don't play into Reniaa's derailment of threads. If this thread dies or lives on it's own, fine. But I don't want 18 pages of argument over the very thing I said I wasn't debating here.

Me: I am not asking for debate on whether God is "Jehovah" or "YHWH" or "Yaweh" or whether the Bible is the Word of God.

Reniaa: Trying to deconstruct someone's belief in the bible and God is not deconstructing a cult but trying to deconstruct their faith in God.

I will address Reniaa then we can move on. While my beliefs are radically different, I don't mind someone's belief in God or the Bible. I am not attempting to deconstruct their faith in God. I want them to see that it is misplaced in a dangerous mind-control cult that is really not interested in the betterment of it's people. It is only interested in keeping minds captive so they can sell Watchtower literature and donate money to this cult. You are confused because most members are sincere and seem to want to help individuals, but they let WTS dictate every aspect of their lives.

Actually, Reniaa is a beautiful example of what I am dealing with, except she is willing to discuss it whereas my wife is not.
Reniaa is probably not genuine, but if she were, she falls right into place with the chart:

A. The Bible is "right."
B. There is a "right" way to serve the God of the Bible.
C. The God of the Bible is "Jehovah."
D. To be serving God "right," you must recognize Jehovah.
E. WTS recognizes Jehovah and uses the Bible, therefore they are the "right" way to serve the God of the Bible.
F. If WTS is "right" then all others are "wrong."
G. Any deviation from this simple "logic" that causes dissonance should just fall back on repeating the steps above.

Deputy Dog

OnTheWayOut

It's not that Jw's own the patent on Jehovah we'd be happier if other christian faiths rejected trinity

That looks like an addmition, that without the Trinity, the WT would have no reason to exist.

Penetrating the Deepest Level- "Jehovah" is God

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