I agree with psacramento's point we also have to deal with translation errors that have crept in and the context. also Knowing there is a reason why something is the exception to a rule.
Reniaa
Imperfection is irrelevant. Who has the right to rule?
by bluecanary 117 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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palmtree67
Reniaa,
Some of the big doctrinal stuff HAS changed, darling. As I'm sure you're aware of, being a regular on this forum.
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PSacramento
When any organization changes a doctine that was based on an interpretation to begin with, I don't have much issues with it, if they at least admit they were mistaken to begin with.
I would have no issues with the RCC changing their "no marriage" views for priest for example or the WT changing their Jesus is/was/is Michael doctrine.
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Spike Tassel
I've just put BLue's follow-up question over at http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/180007/1/where-do-the-refinements-come-from-and-why-do-you-answer-thus for those who are interested in it
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bluecanary
But the big doctrinal stuff doesn't change. Which is important to me.
reniaa, I can understand and respect your choice to be a witness by this criteria. Do you, in turn, understand why that criteria would not be enough for someone else?
For example, let's take the blood doctrine. Now, I don't wish to debate whether or not it's biblical; there are other threads for that. Suffice to say, persons such as yourself believe that it is necessary to avoid blood transfusions to please God. Whereas other persons believe that sacrificing a human life for the sake of avoiding blood is a great affront to God. To this person, that is a major doctrine which would convince them that the Witnesses do not have God's backing. To a witness, perhaps this doctrine isn't that big a deal. They have found other teachings they agree with, so they go along with this one as well. To someone for whom the doctrine is a big deal, there is no overlooking it.
If someone were to find this doctrine morally repugnant, and search for a religion that more closely matches their beliefs of what God has laid out in the Bible, is it reasonable to consider this one wicked?
It's obvious atm we have the bible and holy spirit as guidance
This is not obvious at all. It may be the conclusion you have reached based on your perceptions, but others have reached different conclusions they believe just as firmly, that are also reasonable given the evidence.
I did think of an example of change in the bible not bought about by God and that was moses giving authority to leaders among the tribes to judge in his place his father-in-law gave him that advice and God back it up afterwards.
My contention wasn't that God's human servants could never make decisions without his direction. It was that if God gave his direction, that should be readily apparent, at least some of the time.
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PSacramento
If we take the fact that the people of the OT and old coventant screwed up so much in their attempts to KNOW God and to PLEASE God that he had to send his only son to fix it and create a New Coventant, then perhaps we may admit to ourselves that people didn't really follow God' directions, and most still don't.
Why?
Free will.
Its a bitch, but its what makes sure that WE are the ones that answer for what WE do and don't do, believe and don't beleive.
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bluecanary
reniaa and PSacramento: I think that research, especially without bias, is a fine thing. Do you think that it's reasonable for salvation to be that complicated? If God loves us and wants for us to be saved, why not make the correct information easier to identify and understand.
If someone can so easily dismiss the truth because there's no clear command about something like, for example, celebrating a birthday, what do the big doctrines even matter? In other words, let's say I believe that it's important to preach earthwide and believe in a non-trinitarian God. But I am presented with a religion that believes a lot of other things that I find non-sensical and unBiblical. We're talking about eternal salvation here. Does God expect us to choose to practice restrictive rules and behaviors that he himself did not command because a certain group agrees with us on a few doctrines? If I do and believe everything else that witnesses do, and choose to celebrate my birthday because I can't see Biblically that God would disapprove of it, does that mean I will be judged as unworthy of him?
If God wants for as many humans as possible to be saved, would he want us to associate with a group that puts rules onto us to make it more and more difficult to be saved?
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PSacramento
BLuecanary,
Salvation is not complicated, doctrine is, dosctine formulated on interpretation even more, doctrine formulate din selective interpretation, even more so !
We must decide, fro ourselves, what God's message through Jesus is FOR US, not for anyone else, that is THEIR "job".
EX:
Paul tells Timothy, in plain terms, that Jesus is the sol mediator between all of Us and God, no one else.
If someone decides that thatis not the case and tells someone THEY ARE and that someone beleives them, even though it is stated plainly by Paul ( as in the case above) then is it God that is making salvation "difficult" or is it people because they choose to beleive what they are told instaed of finding out for themselves ?
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Spike Tassel
to bluecanary:regarding birthday, considering that both birthdays in the Bible were in regards to prophets (namely Joseph as well as John the Baptiser) whowere betrayed, this alone seems to highlight the thoughtlessness or blatant selfish ambition which can result (note those surrounding the birthday boys). We can think of Jesus rebuking the 2 apostles who asked (through their mother) to sit on either side of Jesus, which Jesus said was not for Jesus to give. Satanists celebrate birthdays as part of worship of self. Being no part of the world, not following the crowd for evil ends, tradition "invalidating" the Bible: these are several more ideas that connect with not celebrating birthdays. For me, personally, I stopped celebrating by own birthday several years BEFORE I started studying with JWs. For me, I didn't like some of the gifts (they showed how little people actually knew of my tastes, and how much they were just following custom. Many, especially illiterates have no idea when there birthday is, especially if they lost both of their parents early on, and were raised by strangers. So that there's no favoritism, "no birthdays" seems to be a well-thought-out and sound decision, along the lines of Acts 15:28, where is says "For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things."
regarding the difficulty of salvation, 3 scriptures that come quickly to mind are the following:— there is the narrow door/ gate which is hard to get through, Jesus said (Luke 13:24/ Matthew 7:13-14). there's also the issue of branches being lopped off, and others being grafted in (John 15:1-10).
Both of the foregoing paragraphs assume that the GB has the right to rule (a.k.a. hand down rulings) for the benefit and unity of the CCJW.
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PSacramento
Spike,
You do know that Job's son celebreated their Bdays, right?
And when jesus was born the angels celebrated right?
The bible marks events, not dates, so the fact that during those Bdays mentioned by you that a horrid even happend, has nothing to do the Bdays in of themselves, after all, I am sure there were far more than just 2 Bdays in all the history of the bible.
Lets not forget that Paul also mentions that whether one person regards one day over another and another person regards it as the same, it is up to the individual.