LOL... and thus proof why the religion is not dead yet. Not growing worth a damn, but not dead. At the same time, you have to really want attention or really desire a debate to post something like this on a FORMER witness board. LOL Either this person has a big set of balls they want kicked and punched repeatedly or they just want people to care, as they just feel lonely and need the attention. Sorry, but I can not take this serious. Keep laughing.
I agree with Jehovah's Witnesses!
by UnDisfellowshipped 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Deputy Dog
allelsefails
These things are not legalism, they are the law." Sorry I don't understand. What Law are you talking about?
I'll try to explain. Most people (including JWs) understand when we talk about the Ten Commandments (Law of God or Law of Moses) or when we talk about the fist five books of the Old Testament, as referring to The Law of God. Jesus referred to The Law many times, For example: .
Mat 22:36
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the great and first commandment. 39And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."
Many think that Jesus made the Law easier to follow when He said this. He did make it easy to understand. But, the truth is He made it much, much harder to follow. He revealed that anything that does not include loving God or your neighbor is sin. As our friend UnDisfellowshipped likes to point out, the New Testament is full of DOs and DON'Ts, laws if you will. He referred to the sermon on the mount, for example:
Mat 5:21
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' 22But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.
Again Jesus makes the "Law" much harder to follow, including simply calling someone "a fool", as a form of murder, punishable by hell.
There is nothing wrong with these laws or imperatives. They are in fact good. The problem comes when people (like the JWs) think that by keeping the law, that they gain favor with God. No one can keep the law, (unto righteousness) in this life. Including christians before or after faith in Christ.
There was never a law given that can make someone righteous. If men were righteous, there would be no need for God to give any law. The law was given to show us how sinful (bad) we really are. If someone thinks that by keeping the law they could be righteous, this is called self righteousness. We all know what God thinks about that.
What pleases God, is faith in what Jesus did for us. Putting or faith in Christ doesn't mean you have gained the abillity to please or gain God's favor by keeping the law after salvation. The faith in Christ's righteousness, that God gives, covers our sins, and is aceptable righteousness for God to give His favor or grace to us.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are we not to TRY to follow Paul's statements on fruitages of the spirit and avoid the "works of the flesh"? (Galations 5:19-23) If you "have faith" but PRACTICE works of the flesh can you inherit God's Kingdom?
I'm not saying that these things aren't good behavior. They are descriptions of what christian behavior is to look like. You might say that faith will produce good behavior, but, the good behavior doesn't gain Gods favor, the faith does.
I hope this helps to clear things up.
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allelsefails
That was well explained - Thanks.
I think the concept of agreeing with JWs - who think the actions themselves gain God's favor (in spite of what their literature says) Is the difficult part to this thread.
How would you express the concept of a Christian believer -saved thru faith in Christ - who tries to live a moral life with out sin, even tho he may fall short many times? Can you lose "the kingdom of God" thru sin even tho you have faith? Does the Bible say: “This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.”—1 JOHN 5:3 - What commandments if not the moral code?
Thanks again
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Deputy Dog
allelsefails
I think the concept of agreeing with JWs - who think the actions themselves gain God's favor (in spite of what their literature says) Is the difficult part to this thread.
I agree in part, but, most of their literature teaches works. The very idea someone could lose their salvation as a result of a sin, is proof.
How would you express the concept of a Christian believer -saved thru faith in Christ - who tries to live a moral life with out sin, even tho he may fall short many times? Can you lose "the kingdom of God" thru sin even tho you have faith? Does the Bible say: “This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.”—1 JOHN 5:3
1Johnn 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Don't get me wrong about obeying His commandments. It's just that we obey for a different reason than JWs. We don't keep the commands to earn righteousness or favor, or fear of condemnation. You'll notice the key in verse 4. " our faith" We are not burdened by the commands, like the JWs. There is no condemnation.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The other side of this is that we can not please God more by doing go deeds. We already have every blessing throught Christ.
Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
"What commandments if not the moral code?" The short answer is, "to believe" or have faith.
The long answer is that they are the same law or moral code, that we can't keep, but, that's already been obeyed by Christ.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Deputy Dog,
I base all my beliefs on what the Bible teaches only. I think there may have been a misunderstanding here.
When I say Christians should "live by" Christ's moral standards, I do NOT mean that we "get life by" following those morals, I simply mean that God desires us to try to follow them as closely as we can.
I am going to leave you with an important passage of Scripture that I urge you to read over:
1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 (NLT): Finally, dear brothers and sisters, we urge you in the name of the Lord Jesus to live in a way that pleases God, as we have taught you. You live this way already, and we encourage you to do so even more. For you remember what we taught you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. God's will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin. Then each of you will control his own body and live in holiness and honor—not in lustful passion like the pagans who do not know God and his ways. Never harm or cheat a Christian brother in this matter by violating his wife, for the Lord avenges all such sins, as we have solemnly warned you before. God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives. Therefore, anyone who refuses to live by these rules is not disobeying human teaching but is rejecting God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.
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Deputy Dog
Undisfellowshipped
When I say Christians should "live by" Christ's moral standards, I do NOT mean that we "get life by" following those morals, I simply mean that God desires us to try to follow them as closely as we can.
By agreeing with the JWs you imply that you "keep life by" following those morals. You can quote all the verses you like, I'm not telling anyone that sin is OK, nor am I granting license to sin. But living by a moral code is sure death, it can not give us any righteousness in God's eyes, and we are sure to fall short.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Yes, we cannot get or keep life by doing works or following God's morals or laws.
I was just agreeing with JW's that it is a good thing in God's eyes to try to follow the His moral teachings which is what the entire New Testament teaches.
I do not agree at all with the Witnesses' teaching (at least they've taught this in the past) that you must keep doing good works and keep following God's morals to remain saved.
I apologize if there was a misunderstanding.
I will post the things I disagree with the JW's on soon....
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White Dove
I just love that scripture that says not to judge someone if they want to celebrate the new moon:) I'm going to use that one.
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jonathan dough
Your issues seem kind of vague and general.You seem to be avoiding the real issues, where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. For instance, whether all Christian believers are parties to the New Covenant. When the New Covenant expires. Whether the Word is eternal or created.
First, do you belielve that Jesus was, and is, God? If not, you should take a long close look at this article:
http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html . Do you know what the Trinity actually teaches?
Secondly, try comparing what you believe with this summary of the JW's beliefs and teachings. Make a list of these points and then see if you agree with them.Tfhen you will know how close to being a JW you really are.
I. Summary many of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Beliefs as found at http://www.144000.110mb.com/
Every now and then the Jehovah's Witnesses make significant changes to their doctrine that reach to the very core of their belief system. As such, it can be a real challenge to pinpoint exactly what they believe from one year to the next. The changes they make are to be expected given the weakenesses in their dogma and the need to accommodate mountains of theological criticism. Invariably those changes bump up against other points of Society doctrine resulting in an ever-growing tangled mass of contradictions. Due to the nature of these shifting sands one should take their asserted beliefs with a grain of salt.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that only 144,000 people go to heaven (Reasoning from the Scriptures (Reasoning) [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1985], 166). They are the bride of Christ, God’s children, the elect, and often referred to as the “anointed” of Christ (Insight on the Scriptures (Insight), 2 vols. [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1988], 786). The New Testament Greek Scriptures (New Testament) were written primarily to, and for the benefit of, these brothers of Christ. They are specially chosen because they live especially good lives while on earth (Insight, 786-788). Once resurrected to heaven, a process which began in 1918 and will soon be concluded (the first resurrection) (Revelation - Its Grand Climax at Hand (Revelation Climax), [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 19__] 103, 277) they will become a kingdom of priests and kings who will rule with Christ for one thousand years over humans on earth (Insight, 170, 524, 525).
This reign will involve their judging resurrected humans during the thousand year reign, and after the thousand year reign when resurrected mankind will undergo a final decisive test before being destroyed forever or having their names written permanently in God’s book, or scroll, of life (Insight, 251, 788). Whereas the 144,000 are resurrected to heaven as spirit creatures, all other billions of humans worthy of the resurrection during the thousand year reign will be resurrected as corrupt flesh and blood humans with the possibility of immortality on earth (Reasoning, 333-336; Insight, 251). During the thousand year reign the Great Crowd will engage in “perfecting” resurrected humans to a sinless condition enjoyed by Adam and Eve before the fall (Reasoning, 337, 338).
The Great Crowd (or large multitude) is a term found at Revelation 7:9. The Great Crowd are those Jehovah’s Witnesses who survive the Great Tribulation. They do not die, do not need to be resurrected and are declared righteous through faith (Insight, 788) although it appears as though they also must pass a final, decisive test to gain eternal life (Insight., 251). Most Jehovah’s Witnesses today consider themselves to be members of the Great Crowd and according to their interpretation of Revelation 7:9-17 they will always be earthly, not heavenly, subjects of the kingdom of heaven (or kingdom of God). As to those Jehovah’s Witnesses who are not of the 144,000 and do not survive the Great Tribulation, it is believed they will be resurrected in God’s due time (Insight, 788).
The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that when Jesus Christ died and rose to heaven to sit on God’s throne he began to reign only as king over his congregation of 144,000 followers who at the time were still earthly subjects of this spiritual kingdom (Insight, 524). This rule began with Christ’s blood sacrifice which was initiated pursuant to the much-anticipated New Covenant which replaced the old Mosaic Law covenant (Law covenant). This New Covenant, to which only God, Christ and the 144,000 are parties, will expire shortly after the last of the 144,000 are resurrected to heaven (Insight, 524). The only people who have their sins forgiven through Christ's blood sacrifice from the time of Adam until the beginning of the thousand year reign are the 144,000 (Insight, 736).
The real kingdom of God, a much larger, expansive and lengthier kingdom, began in 1914 (the 1914 kingdom) when Christ supposedly sat on the throne to begin his rule over mankind (Insight, 169). Jesus, being a mere angel (Reasoning, 218) created hundreds of millions of years ago, only receives a subsidiary share of this kingdom of God (Insight, 169). 1914 A.D. is arguably the most important date in the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ belief system because it is the year that Jesus returned, or arrived (Great Man, ch. 133, 2; Reasoning, 344), to earth. This was the invisible Second Coming of Christ, or “parousia.” It also heralded the beginning of the first of three judgment days.
We are currently in the first judgment day period. Under the guidance of the remaining earthly anointed 144,000, the Great Crowd of Jehovah’s Witnesses were taught that they were separating the earth’s sheep and goats through their door-to-door ministry (The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived) (Great Man) [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1991] chapter 111, 12-15). This fundamental doctrine, however, changed in 1995. The separation of sheep and goats has been postponed, for now, until a time after the Great Tribulation begins (The Watchtower, Oct. 15, 1995, pg. 23). The sheep join God’s one and only earthly organization, thus becoming members of the Great Crowd (if they survive the Great Tribulation) and earn the opportunity to live life everlasting; all the goats, those who do not heed their invitation, will be destroyed forever during the Great Tribulation and Armageddon with no prospect of resurrection (Ibid.).
The only humans who survive the Great Tribulation and Armageddon, where all the enemies of God are destroyed, are members of the Great Crowd of Jehovah’s Witnesses (Ibid.); no one else. Then begins the thousand year reign of Christ and the 144,000 over the earth’s Great Crowd and the righteous and unrighteous - at least those who merit the resurrection during the thousand years (Reasoning, 339-340). This general resurrection during the millennium is the second resurrection according to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. One of the tasks of the Great Crowd during this peaceful thousand year reign is to restore post-apocalyptic earth to a paradise-like condition. The Great Crowd also assists in educating the 20 billion resurrected dead to the will of God, to get to know Jesus, and to live in accordance with new laws and regulations revealed through the Law Scrolls of God opened at Revelation 20:12 (Insight, 788). The purpose of educating the resurrected is to lift them to a state of perfection on par with Adam and Eve’s sinless state of perfection they enjoyed before rebelling against Jehovah God (Ibid.).
The second judgment day period occurs during the thousand year reign. “Perfected” humans, now only corruptible rather than corrupt when resurrected, are tested and judged based not on their deeds and works in their previous lives (the one we experience today) but on their deeds during the thousand year reign (Ibid.). They believe this because all men are allegedly acquitted of sin in this life and pay for their sins with the wages of death (Insight, 788; Reasoning, 338). Therefore, the only deeds or sins for which they can be put on judgment for are those committed during the thousand year reign, and their conduct during the final test after the thousand years.
The final test of their fidelity begins after the thousand year reign, the third judgment day, when those remaining perfected humans are confronted with the unleashing of Satan from the abyss and all which that entails. If they pass the test successfully they will have their names permanently written in the scroll, or book, of life. If they fail they are cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the Second Death, that is, eternal destruction (Insight, 251).
Thereafter, the services of Christ, the angel, are no longer required. He is no longer needed as a helper in terms of a propitiatory sacrifice, nor as a legal intermediary between God and man. Accordingly, he is dispensed with in this regard (Insight, 170).
The Jehovah's Witnesses believe with all sincerity that they "have the truth" and "are in the truth." However given the very significant repudiation of past doctrines that have formed the essential core of their beliefs for over one hundred years it is doubtful they can make that claim. If their "truth" is not the "truth" by their own admission then their theories were false.JD II
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Spike Tassel
30:) Christians should live by God's moral standards -- no fornication, adultery, murder, stealing, lying, idolatry, or even lusting and hating others.
I say this is accomplished by "self-control", an aspect of having a correctly holy spirit.
I believe, from my study of the Holy Writ, that there are two types of eternal. The first has NO beginning AND no end. The second has A beginning (and perhaps even a death and resurrection) AND no end. The first applies to Jehovah the Creator of all. The second applies to Jesus Christ, the 1444,000, (and any others who are granted eternal life at the end of the thousand years). Some make a distinction regarding the (parenthetical group) as being then granted "everlasting life", not "eternal life", others consider this too fine a distinction to be material.
If those in the broad category ascribed to Jehovah's Witnesses are judged on "changing truth", how are they different from those who use the scientific method, who are treated with great respect, unlike Jehovah's Witnesses?