I agree with Jehovah's Witnesses! (page 5)

UnDisfellowshipped

AllElseFails, thank you very much! You summed up what I was trying to say much better than I did. You explained it perfectly!

Undisfellowshipped - I find mself agreeing with you a lot. I'd still like to continue our discusion of Unitarianism/Trinitarianism even though the thread was a little distracted. Feel free to PM me or just post to the thread I check it often.

Deputy Dog

UnDisfellowshipped Let me be equally clear. This is not about salvation/justification. This is about the "works" that come after! The JWs are like the Pharisees. So, since you say you agree with them on this issue I'll address this to you.

Mat 23:5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,

You are very good at quoting the (moral) law. Your phylacteries are broad and their fringes long. You've quoted verse after verse after verse of the New Testament moral law. Would you have us believe you are keeping it? Would you have God believe you're keeping it? Would you have us believe that God is pleased about the way you are keeping it?

Mat 23:28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

You quoted:

Romans 10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

I'd like to talk about verse 4. You seem to think that you should use the "moral" law for righteousness.

You said:

And I am well aware that the Bible also says that we can only please God by our good works AFTER we have been born again...

I'll ask again. Do you think God is pleased about the way you keep the moral law? I would submit that you imply Christ is the beginning of the moral law for righteousness. You said as much.

Sorry, but, I can't please God, by keeping the law, now after salvation. But, my faith in Christ's atonement pleases God, for the rest of my life. I'm no longer on a works based righteousness or a performance basis with God. I know Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to me.

I'm not talking about a faith without works. I'm talking about works that come from a grateful heart as a result of faith even after salvation.

I can't believe you've been on this board as long as you have, and you can't see the hatred of God that comes when people see God as impossible to please. The Good news is that it doesn't take works to please God, it only requires faith, (before or after salvation).

So my advice to you is, when it comes to pleasing God, drop your "good works". Keep the faith. The works will happen as a result of that. Have faith that He that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

allelsefails

Deputy Dog - I don't think undisfellowshipped disagrees with you. Here are points from the original post.

24:) Christians are saved only by God and Christ's Undeserved Kindness through faith in the Ransom, not by any good works or acts of faith. (Watchtower publications have changed on this teaching over the years. I am going with the very latest publications from the last year)

30:) Christians should live by God's moral standards -- no fornication, adultery, murder, stealing, lying, idolatry, or even lusting and hating others.

Do you actually disagree with these? (Of course Undeserved Kindness = Grace).

Gordy

The "faith/works" debate has been going on for centuries. Is it not, to put it very simply, "faith makes works/works show faith"

If I say "I love my wife" but never show that love by "works", like supporting her, showing affection, doing things for her, even just acknowledging her.

Yeah I can love my wife deeply , but without that outward display of love, my love may as well be dead.

allelsefails said
JWs teach a few things that are correct so do Catholics, so do Baptists, so do Menonnites, so do Christadelphians, so do Methodists, so do Episcopalians, so do ..... etc... ect... etc.....
This is what was said at the Westminister Assembly 1643.
“The idea goes back to a minority wing of the Puritan party in 17th century England. At the Westminster Assembly (1643) was a group of Independents akin to American Congregationalists. These men had come to the conclusion that the sinful condition of man, even Christian men, made the full and clear grasp of the truth of God an impossibility. Consequently, no single body of beliefs can ever fully represent God’s total demand upon the minds and hearts of believers, and no single body of Christians can claim to be the true church of God without considering other believers in other groups.”
“Thus, in the minds of these Puritans, the word denomination implied that a particular body of Christians (let us say, for example the Baptists ) was only a portion of the total Christian church called — or denominated — by its particular name, Baptist.”
“The denominational idea of the church originally stood for an important biblical truth. The church is one. There is only one Saviour, only one Gospel, only one Spirit, so there can only be one church. Divisions, therefore must be within the one body, not from the body. Otherwise Christ would be divided and that is unthinkable ( 1 Cor. 1:12-13 ).”²
- Source: From the book, “What People Ask About The Church ,” by Dale A. Robbins

Deputy Dog

allelsefails

Do you actually disagree with these?

JWs say they live by this. I disagree with this point.

30:) Christians should live by God's moral standards -- no fornication, adultery, murder, stealing, lying, idolatry, or even lusting and hating others.

This is a form of legalism.

While I agree that all these things are indeed sin. Christians have to admit that they still have indwelling sin to deal with, every day. So to say that they live by any moral standard, is total hypocrisy. As a Christian I live by faith in God's grace every day. I no longer live by a moral standard as far as God's approval is concerned.

Brother Apostate

Hi! You said it all when you said this:

"Once again, Watchtower publications have changed on this teaching over the years. I am going with the very latest publications from the last year"

I would choose to comment on the following: Read 1 Corinthians 15:28, read the whole chapter for context.

27:) God and Jesus are the sole Judges, and only they will determine who to save and who to destroy. (Watchtower publications have changed on this teaching over the years. I am going with the very latest publications from the last year)

"Watchtower Publications" mean diddly-squat. Wrong on your prefererred teaching, read Revelation 20:4.

28:) It is very, very important for Christians to have accurate knowledge and to know the truth. In fact, knowing the truth about God and Jesus' identity and nature means your everlasting life or death.

"Accurate Knowledge" is relative. Romans 3:4- You are a liar, so am I. All humans are.

Blessings.

BA

allelsefails

Deputy Dog - I don't disagree not challenging you, but coming out of JWs is a slow painful process (I'm sure you know).

Does faith in God's grace not reveal itself in moral actions and choices? Did Jesus not say that looking at a woman with lust was adultery, that hating your brother was wrong? Did Paul not write that those who practice sins could not inherit God's kingdom? How is that Legalism?

Deputy Dog

allelsefails
Deputy Dog - I don't disagree not challenging you, but coming out of JWs is a slow painful process (I'm sure you know).
As I've said many times. I've never been a JW.
Does faith in God's grace not reveal itself in moral actions and choices?
I'm sure faith reveals it's self in many ways. However, Faith in "God's grace" is a very different thing, compared to a commitment to live up to some standard, that is impossible to live up to. In fact, involved in that faith, is the fact that only Christ could live up to that perfect standard.
Christ lived up to that standard in my place. He did what Adam or I (natural man) could not do.
Did Jesus not say that looking at a woman with lust was adultery, that hating your brother was wrong? Did Paul not write that those who practice sins could not inherit God's kingdom?
These things are not legalism, they are the law.
How is that Legalism?
Legalism is the delusion of thinking you can live up to that standard. Thinking that God is pleased, by our vain attempts to keep that law. This is sin, before and after salvation.
God is only pleased by faith in Christ's perfect obedience.

allelsefails

"These things are not legalism, they are the law." Sorry I don't understand. What Law are you talking about? I do know that "perfect obedience" is beyond sinful men like me - I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are we not to TRY to follow Paul's statements on fruitages of the spirit and avoid the "works of the flesh"? (Galations 5:19-23) If you "have faith" but PRACTICE works of the flesh can you inherit God's Kingdom?

I agree with Jehovah's Witnesses!

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