very good post "undisfellowshipped" !
yes, there are teachings, that just seem still right to me,
will look forward to your list of things you do not agree....
I agree with Jehovah's Witnesses!
by UnDisfellowshipped 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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LouBelle
this is a good post and I think that if you do believe in some of what the JWs teach, that's fine and well....for you. It's great that you're trying to find a common ground for healthy discussion/debate.
We are all following our own paths, be it agnostic, athiest, christian, spiritual.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Thank you all for your replies!
Now if I can just get Reniaa or Spike to post here....
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Ri
The end of all governments will come to an end sooner or later....that is what I read in the Holy scriptrues.
I don't think any religion has the truth.
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parakeet
The goal of this thread is to establish some common ground with Jehovah's Witnesses. I want to show all Jehovah's Witnesses which of their beliefs I agree with. My hope is to elevate the discussion to a better level than the usual discussions which often end up with name-calling or personal attacks.
Your goal is doomed from the start. You assume dubs are capable of elevated discussions. They are not. They're braindead.
Your second error is that dubs and anyone else can find a "common ground." They cannot. If you're not completely one of them, you're toast. Soon. Any day now.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Parakeet,
You said:
"Your goal is doomed from the start. You assume dubs are capable of elevated discussions. They are not. They're braindead."
My Reply:
That's not very nice at all. I can understand if you are angry or upset with the Watchtower Society or some JW's, but please try to remember that you always "catch more flies with honey."
Plus, most of us used to be JW's just like the current JW's, and if we were able to come to our senses, then so can they.
In addition, I have known several Jehovah's Witnesses who are very, very intelligent and some that are even open-minded.
You said:
"Your second error is that dubs and anyone else can find a "common ground." They cannot. If you're not completely one of them, you're toast. Soon. Any day now."
My Reply:
I agree that this is what they have taught for decades (on and off) in their publications and at their meetings, however, in some of their very latest publications, they are shifting much more in the direction that only God and Jesus can judge anyone, and that God may choose to save people who are not Witnesses, as long as God sees something in their hearts that He likes.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Here are two newer articles from The Watchtower which show that they are now claiming God judges people based on their heart condition and motives, etc.:
The Watchtower, June 1st, 2005 Issue, Pages 14-15:
"Saved, Not by Works Alone, but by Undeserved Kindness" (Study Article)
(Paragraph 1): "Christians [...] realize that in Jehovah's service, right motives are more important than personal accomplishments. Anyone who is eventually given the gift of eternal life will have gained it, not by personal accomplishments, but through faith and by God's undeserved kindness. -- Luke 17:10; John 3:16."
(Paragraph 3): "Even though Paul was outstanding in performing Christian works, he recognized that his achievements were not owing to any particular abilities of his own. With modesty, he noted: "To me, a man less than the least of all holy ones, this undeserved kindness was given, that I should declare to the nations the good news about the unfathomable riches of the Christ." (Ephesians 3:8) No boastful attitude here nor holier-than-thou haughtiness. "God opposes the haughty ones, but he gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones." (James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5) Do we follow Paul's example, humbly considering ourselves to be less than the least of our brothers?"
Page 17:
(Paragraph 10): "Our sacred service is pleasing to Jehovah only when it is rendered out of love and devotion, not for the sake of elevating ourselves over others. It is therefore vital to have a balanced view of our activity in support of true worship. [...]"
(Paragraph 11): "If motive is all-important in gaining Jehovah's approval, then to what extent should we be concerned about our works of faith? As long as we perform our ministry with the right motive, is it really necessary to keep account of what we do or how much? These are reasonable questions, since we do not want to put numbers ahead of acts of faith or let having a good report become a major concern regarding our Christian activity."
(Paragraph 12): "[...] What fine encouragement the news of these increases must have brought to the disciples. For the same reason, Jehovah's Witnesses today endeavor to keep accurate records of what is accomplished worldwide. [...]"
Pages 18-19:
(Paragraph 14): "While our field service report plays its part, helping us to maintain our zeal in preaching and to avoid slacking off, we must keep it in proper perspective. It is not to be viewed as a spiritual license or passport, determining our eligibility for everlasting life."
(Paragraph 15): "Clearly, even though works alone cannot save us, they are necessary. [...] James simply says: "As the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." -- James 2:26."
(Paragraph 16): "Important though the good works themselves may be, the motives for doing them are even more important. It is therefore wise for us to check our motives from time to time. Since no human can accurately know the motives of others, however, we must be aware of judging others. "Who are you to judge the house servant of another?" we are asked, with the obvious answer: "To his own master he stands or falls." (Romans 14:4) Jehovah, the Master of all, and his appointed Judge, Christ Jesus, will judge us, not on the basis of our works alone but also on the basis of our motives, our opportunities, our love, and our devotion. Only Jehovah and Christ Jesus can accurately judge whether we have done what Christians are admonished to do, in the words of the apostle Paul: "Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright." -- 2 Timothy 2:15; 2 Peter 1:10; 3:14."
(Paragraph 17): "Jehovah is reasonable in what he expects of us. According to James 3:17, "The wisdom from above is," among other things, "reasonable." Would it not be the course of wisdom, as well as a true accomplishment, for us to imitate Jehovah in this regard? Thus, we should not try to set unreasonable and unreachable expectations for ourselves or for our brothers."
(Paragraph 18): "As long as we keep a balanced view of our works of faith and Jehovah's undeserved kindness, we will maintain the joy that is a distinguishing mark of true servants of Jehovah. (Isaiah 65:13, 14) We can rejoice in the blessings that Jehovah is pouring out on his people as a whole, regardless of how much we personally may be able to do. [...] Yes, we can draw comfort and encouragement from knowing that we can be saved, not by works alone, but by Jehovah's undeserved kindness!"
---------------------------------------------------The Watchtower, November 15th, 2008 Issue, Pages 20-22:
"We are "saved through faith," "not owing to works" of the Mosaic Law or of those performed as Christians. Our faith should be more than mere professed faith. (Eph. 2:8-9; John 3:16) It should move us to godly action. [...]
"Baptism is a requirement for those seeking salvation. However, baptism itself does not save us. Salvation is actually "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." The baptismal candidate must have faith that salvation is possible only because Jesus died a sacrificial death, was resurrected, and "is at God's right hand," having authority over the living and the dead." -
LockedChaos
That which you agree with
is only believed by faith in
the unknowable, unprovable,
myths, and legends
After almost 54 years on this
earth, I prefer belief in that which
I can see, hear, touch, and
substanciate
When theory, insight, and inspiration
are reproducable by others
they then move beyond faith and
hope and into the realm of fact
and truth
Read the latest findings of brain science
Read the current writings from biblical scholars
and theology professors. Learn what they have
known for the last 200 years and have kept
from the R&F membership regarding scripture and
history
My 2 cents
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parakeet
That's not very nice at all. I can understand if you are angry or upset with the Watchtower Society or some JW's, but please try to remember that you always "catch more flies with honey."
"Braindead" is an accurate term for dubs. They have abdicated their responsibilities as human beings to think, reason, and choose for themselves. They have allowed the WTS to do their thinking for them. I don't use the term "braindead" in anger, just as a statement of fact. I don't think honey or vinegar matter to dubs. If any are ready to seek real "truth," they'll find it. You don't have to sugarcoat it for them.
......however, in some of their very latest publications, they are shifting much more in the direction that only God and Jesus can judge anyone, and that God may choose to save people who are not Witnesses, as long as God sees something in their hearts that He likes.
The WTS is shifting its view in order to avoid answering for the harm they cause their victims. It's a legal shift, not theological. The WTS is still controlling the strings of their puppets, but they desire to avoid the appearance of doing so.
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mouthy
that you always "catch more flies with honey."
Yes! but have you noticed once the flies are caught they cant remove their feet.
They are STUCK!!!The honey the WT uses has the same effect