Are You Paul or are you Saul?

by reniaa 347 Replies latest jw friends

isaacaustin

Hi mrmajestic
thats cool but can I ask you one last question... What if the people you meet are clearly not suffering, what if you can see they are happy and settled as witnesses would you still try and erm 'save them?
Reniaa
My reply: Sure I would. If a JW saw someone clearly not suffering and happy in their current religion would they still try to 'witness' to them? To one trapped in a cult, everyting seems happy and secure in that environment, the same as an alcoholic can not see they have a problem.
Hi TD
Anyone on this forum that still believes in God know they should be preaching his message and recruitiing members that way.
My reply: Preaching God's message? Sure. Recruitng members what way?
I see a lot of Justifications for a total anti-witness agenda but the truth is in how they do it.
My reply: anti-witness in a misnomer- we are against the Wt org and what it stands for and does- destroying families and lives.
Peeing in kingdom halls, Terrible, shameful!
publicity stunts, depends what it is
unsolicited anti-witness info emails to Jw friends, - not wrong, I do this myself. JWs do unsolicted calls to strangers, by the same logic that is equally wrong. I
agressive name calling, wrong
messages left in kingdom halls calling them paedophiles, - those calls should be directed to the WT HQ- the local congs simply follow the directives
making spouses ultimatums of 'it's me or Jw's' encouraged. - as JW spouses do the same- both are wrong
Encouraging deceit by encouraging apostates to infiltrate JW's and deceitfully stumble people.- so long as one does not lie there is nothing wrong here...
If your new 'Faith' aka ' destroy the witnesses' leads to all these actions or supporting them you can keep it, it's definitely not fruitage I wish to be part of.
Reniaa
My reply: I have never heard of a faith called "destroy the Witnesses" LOL Nor is my goal to 'destroy a witness'...it is to move their faith off the gov body and to Jesus.

Hi mickey mouse
cult is a well used word but it's just name-calling to emotionally manipulate the listener. There are so many lies and exagerations on here demonising the witnesses. That when poeple from here even once-witnesses for some reason either talk to current witnesses or goto a meeting they find it very tame and boringly normal compared to what they have been emotionally manipulated into thinking will happen.
Reniaa

My reply: you mean like 'apostate', 'antiwitness'....or all the other terms you use to describe those who seek to help others see the light? The thing is, the terms and saying on here to 'demonise' the witnesses are all true for the most part.
isaacaustin

Reniaa:
I am offering something when I go on the Doors, I goto to each door with a full Plate of Spiritual food. With a message from God, we are not telling them God doesn't exist.
My reply: So you go door to door? Somehow I don not beleive that.
Mad Dawg

Ren said:
what lists ones written by people that would have called first century Christians a cult?

Because of your mangled grammar, I am not sure what you are asking. However, first century Christians were considered a curiosity. But they were not considered a cult as the term is understood today. Luke 5:30 NIV, Acts 24:5 NIV, Acts 24:14 NIV, Acts 26:5 NIV, Acts 28:22 NIV
Early Christianity was considered by contemporaries as a sub-division of Judaism.
Mad Dawg said:
First, I find it odd that you would defend your faith with a list that puts your faith on the same level as David Koresh and the Branch Davidians.

Ren Said:
To be homest as soon as you said David Koresh you lost me because thats akin to using Godwin's law, deliberately mentioning a heinous murderous sect to make people associate it with witnesses...badly done Mad dawg. If thats what you think of witnesses we don't have much to discuss.
Reniaa

HOLY COW, REN!! Take a deep breath, Ren. Sloooowly let it out. Let’s examine this like adults now.
Ø Who posted this link that equates the WTS with David Koresh? Ren's Link
Ø Bingo! YOU DID!!
Ø Who is associating Koresh with the WTS?
Ø Correct again! YOU ARE!!
Ø How am I the bad guy for pointing out WHAT YOU DID!?
Ø Read your quote again more carefully: “thats akin to using Godwin's law, deliberately mentioning a heinous murderous sect to make people associate it with witnesses”
Ø CONGRATULATIONS, REN!!! You have now connected the WTS with Nazis! Am I a bad guy for noticing what YOU did here too?
Ø Where do you get off equating the Branch Davidians with Nazis? They are just imperfect men.
Ø Can you give an example of what they did that was so "heinous"? It was the Government that murdered people.
Ø As victims of government aggression, I am actually sympathetic with them.
Ø No, I don’t view witnesses as you seem to think I do.
You really shouldn’t be making such lame accusations just to avoid answering pointed questions.
isaacaustin

Mad Dawg, that is what the Wt trains its people to do- defend at all costs.
Chalam

"Fight till death" or is that "second death"? :(
All the best,
Stephen
isaacaustin

unfortunately the 2nd death..
Spike Tassel

• To Mickey mouse (Post 1475) and mrsjones5 (Post 9298): Some here don't see how being a hoodlum or a blackmailer or a spy or a manipulator or a con artist or a "practical joker" could ever possibly be hallmarks of those with an upright, proper motive. Are you suggesting we could be wrong about this?
• To restrangled (Post 5303) and Priest73: When you speak of Revelation 3: 16 and "hot or cold", what are your thoughts about what Jesus is getting at when he refers to "hot" and "cold"?
• To Mickey mouse (Post 1477): Actually, if you're right, then it matters quite a lot what each and every one of us considers the definition of an apostate to be. It determines what our relationships are going to look like.
• To reniaa (Post 1449, Post 1451): It is interesting the way you paraphrase me by saying »Is it 'Search and destroy' (Saul) or 'Search and Rescue' (Paul).« Your own approach when you 'go on the doors' suggests that it may be even better to characterise the enduring Christian as one whose mission is to 'Search and Discuss'. It's about keeping to respectful conversation in short bursts about topics that might have interest for both parties. It depends on good listening and silence while the other speaks so that we each can get to know the other person better and (hopefully) have even more in common, with time. That seems to leave it open for everyone to be 'rescued' from any ignorance or misconceptions or mis-steps along the way. I like that. It's very hopeful and positive. It can help us all mature in our thinking and understanding, in all its applications.
• To Mr. Majestic (Post 857): 'Door work' is about at least attempting to engage other people of varying beliefs in respectful discussions about the Bible and the perceptions that we build our lives on. If the householder can eventually share with us in 'going on the doors', that could increase the range and depth of what we can share, even becoming good, reliable friends for each other. Who wouldn't feel better with more real and true friends?! It's an education work about the Bible for even the one with the message, about who Jehovah really is, and how we as individuals and together can be better people. If we're out to 'save' people, even 'happy Mormons', we are also in need of the same 'salvation', until everlasting life is granted. If my message is one of doubt or fantasy or error or being too black-+-white, then I pray that my faith may become strong and sound and whole and in full-colour. May I learn how to test properly whether I'm in the faith, and may I keep on testing so that I may become fully approved to those who do and ought to matter most.
• To isaacaustin (Post 1498, Post 1501): 'Trapped in a cult' and 'false gospel JWs offer' seem not to be the words of those with a 'free mind'. Could that be why it is a daunting task when you 'try to gear ones toward Jesus'? Perhaps your own mind needs freeing still on various points, just as mine surely does on many.
— Spike Tassel.
isaacaustin

• To isaacaustin (Post 1498, Post 1501): 'Trapped in a cult' and 'false gospel JWs offer' seem not to be the words of those with a 'free mind'. Could that be why it is a daunting task when you 'try to gear ones toward Jesus'? Perhaps your own mind needs freeing still on various points, just as mine surely does on many.
— Spike Tassel.
Spike, I feel my mind is free from the indoctrination of the WT. It is a daunting task to lead anyone to Christ. Doing it to a JW who is still indoctrinated is even harder. I am sure no one's mind can be completely free....but that does not spark my characterization of JWs as trapped in a cult and preaching a false gospel. The trapped part is my observation of the members action in response to organizational directive- regardless if they beleive or even understand it or not. As my wife said "She has to follow wahtever the org says because she belives it is the only org God is working thru." The false gospel is self-evident .
TD

Ren,
Peeing in kingdom halls, publicity stunts, unsolicited anti-witness info emails to Jw friends, agressive name calling, messages left in kingdom halls calling them paedophiles, making spouses ultimatums of 'it's me or Jw's' encouraged. Encouraging deceit by encouraging apostates to infiltrate JW's and deceitfully stumble people. If your new 'Faith' aka ' destroy the witnesses' leads to all these actions or supporting them you can keep it, it's definitely not fruitage I wish to be part of.
Wow!
Every social group has its aberrations. In the book, Wolves Among Sheep author James Kostelniuk documents the murder of a family by an abusive JW father. The woman's pleas for help from her Elders went ignored. They told her that scripturally, she should go back to her husband, who subsequently took a shotgun to the entire family.
Is that typical of Jehovah's Witnesses? Of course not! Would it be fair for me to suggest that this is the sort of behavior that following the JW faith leads to? Of course not.
In your original post on this thread, you were very clear that the differences between Saul and Paul were not a matter of personal character. You said:
Both were extremely zealous, both thought they were doing Gods work, Both thought they were working for the greater good.
I think you are again deviating from your original premise and are now painting with a very broad brush. The majority of those who have an idealogical disagreement with the Witnesses do not engage in the behavior you describe.
Spike Tassel

• May I gently suggest that labels such terms as "indoctrination" and "trapped in a cult" and "preaching a false gospel" seem to be harsh, unloving, mind-closing accusations, much as it would be if someone called you a "bigot"! These hardly are the words that we would find endearing and kind, which you must also need to hear and feel, just as I do. Just perhaps, practicing loving-kindness could to be warm and friendly, diplomatic and humble, even appealing and uplifting, right?
— Spike Tassel.

Are You Paul or are you Saul?

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