Isaacaustin-hi chalam 'exact representation' 'exact likeness' 'image'
these all actually prove Jesus isn't God none of these can be the original. just like man is made in the image of god but he too isn't god. image is not the original.
If you are like something you are like it but you are not it.
when you represent something you are not it.
these are simple proofs that Jesus is not God.
My reply: Wrong and faulty reasoning Reniaa.
verse 3: who is the refulgence of his glory, the very imprint of his being, and who sustains all things by his mighty word.
He is the refulgence, or reflection, or radiance of God's glory. But the Bible says that God will not share, or give his glory to anyone else. From the NWT:
Isaiah 42:8 I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.
Isaiah 48 "11 For my own sake, for my own sake I shall act, for how could one let oneself be profaned? And to no one else shall I give my own glory
Whose glory does Isaiah see here in Isaiah 6:
1 In the year that King Uz·zi´ah died I, however, got to see Jehovah, sitting on a throne lofty and lifted up, and his skirts were filling the temple. 2 Seraphs were standing above him. Each one had six wings. With two he kept his face covered, and with two he kept his feet covered, and with two he would fly about. 3 And this one called to that one and said: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The fullness of all the earth is his glory.” 4 And the pivots of the thresholds began to quiver at the voice of the one calling, and the house itself gradually filled with smoke.
5 And I proceeded to say: “Woe to me! For I am as good as brought to silence, because a man unclean in lips I am, and in among a people unclean in lips I am dwelling; for my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of armies, himself!”
6 At that, one of the seraphs flew to me, and in his hand there was a glowing coal that he had taken with tongs off the altar. 7 And he proceeded to touch my mouth and to say: “Look! This has touched your lips, and your error has departed and your sin itself is atoned for.”
8 And I began to hear the voice of Jehovah saying: “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I proceeded to say: “Here I am! Send me.” 9 And he went on to say: “Go, and you must say to this people, ‘Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge.’ 10 Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves.”
He saw Jehovah's glory....right out of the NWT. John 12 says:
37 But although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, 38 so that the word of Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled which he said: “Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?” 39 The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: 40 “He has blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I should heal them.” 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him. 42 All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess [him], in order not to be expelled from the synagogue; 43 for they loved the glory of men more than even the glory of God.
The context here is clear- Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus- a person of the Divine being known as Jehovah. Since God does not share his glory with anyone else and Isaiah saw Jehovah's glory- identified as Jesus here..this equates jesus to being God in nature.
Regarding the exact representation of his very being, or the very imprint of his being....Phil 2:6 says " who, although he was existing in God's form, ..." This says he was in God's form. He has God's appearance. he looks like God in his being. Who else looks exactly like God. No one
My reply: Reniaa, after looking thru this post...and all the 'proof texts' you have thrown out to try to disprove the trinity...the only thing you have disproved is modalism- the 3 being the same person. And none of us beleived that anyway. You have done nothing (nor could you) to show that Jesus and the Father do not share the same nature and operate as one spiritual flesh.
hi isaac you found me :)
Sorry I'm not buying it! my words above work for all version of the trinity god unless you are say there is more than One God and that would make you polytheistic without doubt and so biblically wrong.
My reply: That is where you have a lack of understanding. We as being are finite. Only one person can exist in our being. You then apply our finite existance to God who is infinite. These three persons are not divided. If they were divided and not in perfect unity they would operate as 3 gods. They do not. They operate in perfect unity and thus are one spiritual flesh...operation as one God.
if you are the image/or like/ or represent something you are not it.
Do you believe Jesus is The true God according to your version of trinity? If you believe he is then the above scriptures apply because you cannot be like God and be God at the same time.
My reply: There are a few renderings of this verse...exact representation, express image..etc. None of these say he is like God, but that he is the exact representation of his very being. Again, who can be exactly like God and not be God?
Even if you think God is 3 'who's in One What' a title/postion that son/father/holy ghost separate persons all share You are still trying to say God itself is One so if something is like that God it still isn't God. If something is the image of that god it still isn't God like Man isn't god by virtue of being the 'image' of God.
My reply: wrong analogy here. We were MADE in the image of God. Jesus is the express image of God. Big difference there..
We've talk on nature before and I posted something I found that clearly shows the word in greek is actually 'form' which again is akin to be a likeness to God not God himself.
Nature comes into it when you goto Greek philosophy which early trinitarians were heavily influenced by and that is where all this metaphysical nature comes from,
but the bible is very Pure it say Jesus is LIKE god, it says he is 'with God', it says he is sent by God. It says God is his head. it says Jesus is co-heirs with man to God, it says Jesus will give authority back to God, It say Jesus is on the righthand of God, it says Jesus is Gods Son, and yes it even says Jesus is 'a god' like the angels in psalms are
Psalm 82:1 (English Standard Version)
1 ( B ) God ( C ) has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of ( D ) the gods he ( E ) holds judgment:
but it never says Jesus is The Almighty God, Jesus himself only admitted to being God's son, it says Jesus is Gods messenger
I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
My reply: Greater is positional. Better is nature. I agree the father is greater than the Son- positionally.
28 Y OU heard that I said to YOU , I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU . If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am
Greater- a greater postion...and he will glorify Jesus and give him all he has and Jesus will, in turn, send the Holy Spirit to his disciples.
Heb 1;4 4 So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.
He lowered himself to a nature below that of angels..and upon his ascension he was made better (nature), not greater than angels.