** Asking the Hard Questions **

by FlyingHighNow 73 Replies latest jw friends

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Has the Episcopal churches theological liberalism helped it?

    Answer: It's membership is dying off at an alarming rate. Make of this what you will.

    Many Episcopelians are turning to African Bishops for more orthodox leadership. Fortunately, the Anglican church is alive and well and vibrant in Africa. However, many American dioceses are seceding. American Episcopelianism has unfortunately been invaded and subverted. They have watered their historic orthodox Christian teaching down a great deal. Now they have many empty pews, losing more than a million members over the last 40 years, nearly a third of their membership. Columnist George Will wrote an article regarding the dilemma here:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/10/the_shrinking_episcopal_church.html

    BTS

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Answer: It's membership is dying off at an alarming rate. Make of this what you will.

    Burn, very few Episcopalians are turning to African Bishops. It amounts to a tiny percentage of parishes and the ones that have are at the mercy of the ultra conservative minority.

    The reason the church is small is because it is not an evangelistic church and yes, some people want to be told what to think, when to think it and how to think it. But many, many people today would welcome a church that does not try to control them. They just don't know about the Episcopal church because it is not evangelical. If it was, it would grow.

    However, many American dioceses are seceding.

    Like I said, the number is not many. It's less than 10, maybe even less than 5. I'll research it.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    FHN

    What do you think worshipping Jesus means?

    John 5:22

    The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son,JUST AS they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

    Loving God would be a good place to start. How can you love God if you don't even know who He is? You can't worship the Father without worshipping the Son.

    Or would it be following his example in love? His greatest commandment is to love God and then to love your neighbor as yourself.

    Do you keep these commands? The command says to love God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your mind. Are you doing that? The only way I can do this is by faith (in what Jesus has done), not by works.

    If you worship Jesus, why are you trying to scare people with hell?

    Don't you mean why is Jesus trying to scare people with hell? Look at the words of Jesus:

    Mat 10:28

    And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Mat 18:8And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

    Luk 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into Hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

    Your own church teaches this. There are plenty more verses I worship Jesus because He payed the price to keep me from hell (which I deserve). Hell is what we all deserve, and what we will recieve without faith in Jesus.

    Why are you trying to turn this into a competition between churches, DP?

    I thought you were the one doing that. when you said:

    I want to note that the Episcopal Church does not disagree with Evolution. The church is ecuemenical. The church is mostly Universalist in it's leanings and inclusive, save a few conservative thinkers. They will serve you communion if you've been baptized, doesn't matter if you are an atheist or agnostic or have converted to Muslim, etc. You're welcome there.

    You say this as if it's a good thing that they do, that others don't. Do you think it's a sign of a healthy church that would baptize (accept as members) "an atheist or agnostic or have converted to Muslim, etc."?

    You don't have to go to any church to do this. You don't have to believe in God to follow Jesus' example.

    Really? I have never seen one person who can follow His example. How many people have you died for today? How many people have you healed? How many have you raised from the dead? Jesus did not sin at all. Have you?

    What is the scripture that talks about non christians who followed the law written in their hearts?

    It's in Romans

    Rom 2:12

    For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    By the way, that African Bishop supports female circumcision and lesser rights of women.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    I asked what worshipping Jesus means to YOU. I'm not asking for Bible quotes.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    There have only been four dioceses that have deserted the EC of the Americas. Members who do not agree with the decision are re-organized within their dioceses. Not all members of those dioceses agree with the decision or bishop.

    Of note: most of the Episcopal priests, and the one Bishop I have spoken to face to face, have left the Roman Catholic Church because they want to marry, have families, are women who feel called to be priests and deacons.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    FHN

    I asked what worshipping Jesus means to YOU. I'm not asking for Bible quotes.

    That's what it means to me. I believe what the bible says about worshipping Jesus.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    So did the Pharisees, but their worhip of God was not acceptable to Jesus. That's why I ask what it means to you. How do you worship him? In your heart and mind and in actions? I have known many technically faithful christians, through out my life, who are judgmental, controlling, coldhearted and extremely unpleasant to everyone including their families. Then I have also known people who were not technically faithful, but were christians and people who were or are not christians, that were kind, peaceful, generous, uplifting people to everyone, including very judgmental chrisitans. Jesus condemned religious scribes, priests and Pharisees who were very technically faithful, but were exclusive and unkind, judgmental. Those people were too concerned about the wrong things and Jesus called them on it.

    I am not saying that your worship is unacceptable to Jesus. I am saying that I feel is much more concerned about your heart being kind and generous and your actions reflecting that. And also that you are not judgmental.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    FHN

    I have known many technically faithful christians, through out my life, who are judgmental, controlling, coldhearted and extremely unpleasant to everyone including their families.

    I think you mean "technically righteous"

    There is no such thing as a "technically faithful christian". That was Jesus point and I agree. I can't keep the law. I need another type of righteousness, a righteousness that is not my own (or self righteousness). I need Christ's righteousness.

    The Pharisees were full of self-righteousness, which is not righteous at all.

    Mat 5:20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 21"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' 22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

    The only way to be faithful, is by faith in Christ's works (righteousness) on the cross. NOT by works of the law. Muslums for example, have faith in their ability to keep their own law, this is self-righteousness.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    It's a matter of semantics. And I said technically faithful, because they follow the rules as written, but overlook the heart and thought matters. They appear faithful, but as 1 John 4:8 states, "They do not know God because God is love." It is not loving to try to force people to love God by scaring them with hell or destruction. It is not loving to be judging other people's salvation. We have to love others or we have not really come to know God. But hey, God is patient, even with the hypocrites. I am not supposing that you are a hypocrite, I am speaking of the religions that preach with love out of one side of the mouth and doom and fear out of the other, while encouraging members to judgmental and to close their hearts and minds to true love and true respect for fellow human beings.

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