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How do you respond to the JW statement: "The First Century had congregations, preaching, Elders, Servants, C.O.'s, and so do we!
by BonaFide 32 Replies latest jw friends
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cameo-d
About one hundred years before the days of Jesus and John a new school of religious teachers arose in Palestine, the apocalyptists. These new teachers evolved a system of belief that accounted for the sufferings and humiliation of the Jews on the ground that they were paying the penalty for the nation's sins. They fell back onto the well-known reasons assigned to explain the Babylonian and other captivities of former times. But, so taught the apocalyptists, Israel should take heart; the days of their affliction were almost over; the discipline of God's chosen people was about finished; God's patience with the gentile foreigners was about exhausted. The end of Roman rule was synonymous with the end of the age and, in a certain sense, with the end of the world. These new teachers leaned heavily on the predictions of Daniel, and they consistently taught that creation was about to pass into its final stage; the kingdoms of this world were about to become the kingdom of God. To the Jewish mind of that day this was the meaning of that phrase--the kingdom of heaven--which runs throughout the teachings of both John and Jesus. To the Jews of Palestine the phrase "kingdom of heaven" had but one meaning: an absolutely righteous state in which God (the Messiah) would rule the nations of earth in perfection of power just as he ruled in heaven--"Your will be done on earth as in heaven." In the days of John all Jews were expectantly asking, "How soon will the kingdom come?" There was a general feeling that the end of the rule of the gentile nations was drawing near. There was present throughout all Jewry a lively hope and a keen expectation that the consummation of the desire of the ages would occur during the lifetime of that generation. While the Jews differed greatly in their estimates of the nature of the coming kingdom, they were alike in their belief that the event was impending, near at hand, even at the door. Many who read the Old Testament literally looked expectantly for a new king in Palestine, for a regenerated Jewish nation delivered from its enemies and presided over by the successor of King David, the Messiah who would quickly be acknowledged as the rightful and righteous ruler of all the world. Another, though smaller, group of devout Jews held a vastly different view of this kingdom of God. They taught that the coming kingdom was not of this world, that the world was approaching its certain end, and that "a new heaven and a new earth" were to usher in the establishment of the kingdom of God; that this kingdom was to be an everlasting dominion, that sin was to be ended, and that the citizens of the new kingdom were to become immortal in their enjoyment of this endless bliss. All were agreed that some drastic purging or purifying discipline would of necessity precede the establishment of the new kingdom on earth. The literalists taught that a world-wide war would ensue which would destroy all unbelievers, while the faithful would sweep on to universal and eternal victory. The spiritists taught that the kingdom would be ushered in by the great judgment of God which would relegate the unrighteous to their well-deserved judgment of punishment and final destruction, at the same time elevating the believing saints of the chosen people to high seats of honor and authority with the Son of Man, who would rule over the redeemed nations in God's name. And this latter group even believed that many devout gentiles might be admitted to the fellowship of the new kingdom. Some of the Jews held to the opinion that God might possibly establish this new kingdom by direct and divine intervention, but the vast majority believed that he would interpose some representative intermediary, the Messiah. And that was the only possible meaning the term Messiah could have had in the minds of the Jews of the generation of John and Jesus. Messiah could not possibly refer to one who merely taught God's will or proclaimed the necessity for righteous living. http://www.urantia.org/papers/paper135.html
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Finally-Free
I wonder if they had pioneers and auxiliary pioneers, city overseers, zone overseers, bethelites, and a legal department in the first century.
Not likely.
W
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moggy lover
Did the 1C AD have congregations? Yes. So that is not the right question. The right question to ask is:
How were the congregations arranged? Were they hierarchical as the Watchtower congregations are today? No. There is every evidence in the NT that each congregation was an independent unit with its own locally elected elders. The congregations were scattered communities of believers in Christ whose common bond was a love for each other that came as a result of being "in Christ"
Did they have elders? Yes. But again the question is: How were these elders appointed?
At 1 Tim :1-7 Paul gave an outline of what qualified a man to be an elder. These instructions were given to Timothy, who was himself an elder evidently in the city of Ephesus. [1Tim 1:3] so that when he came to appoint them he would know what these qualifications were. In turn, as this letter was distributed among the congregations, the local elders would have these instructions. To conclude that Paul was an elistist member of a "GB" is an absurd allusion that has no reccomendations from the NT. Timothy himself had been appointed by the older men of his congregation by the laying on of hands [1 Tim 4:14]
He was not:
1 Appointed by a "Governing Body" centrally set up in one location, evidently in Jerusalem. We know that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and the Christians were thus scattered from there. As near as we can determine, the first letter to Timothy was written about 63-65 AD and the second about 65-67 AD [NASB Study Bible Notes] So the "GB" if there was one, would have been rather busy at this time trying to preserve itself rather than keep tabs on a youngster from Ephesus.
2 Appointed by a traveling overseer representing a "GB" on the recommendation of the local body.
Did they have Deacons? Yes. And evidently Deaconesses to. [Rom 16:1] Phoebe is referred to as a "minister" [NASB, NW "T"] "Deaconess" [CB Williams NT] The word is the feminine form for the male "ministerial servant" at 1 Tim 3:8, which is why the NASB Study Bible says: "When church related as here, the term probably refers to a specific office, ie a woman deacon or deaconess." [page 1658]
Did they preach? Yes. But:
1 There is no evidence whatsoever that it was incumbent on all in the local congregation to evangelize. Eph 4:1 specifically says that Christ gave some to be evangelists.
2 When giving the qualifications for elders and deacons in the local churches Paul pointedly ignored the preaching work, emphasizing instead the empathy the prospective elder had for the fellowship of believers. Elders were not for the purpose of making converts, but building up the local fellowship.
3 There is not a single instance where people became believers as a result of a door-to-door ministry. Every time we see Paul or Peter or even Phillip preach, it was always in the open, in the public. The early Christians only came to people's homes when invited to do so. [Acts 10:24, 16:34] They never entered a home uninvited. Using texts such as Acts 5:42 and 20:20 is straining the plain meaning of the text. The idiom used for "From house to house" actually is better translated as "privately".
Hope this helps.
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OnTheWayOut
I wouldn't bother to argue over the validity of changing the terms, church, pastor, priest, deacon, bishop, whatever.
Christendom says "tom-aa-toe" and JW's say "tom-ah-toe."I would just start with saying, "Okay, then the first century congregations never had judicial committees. A person had to be heard by the whole congregation before they cast them out. If you are going to imitate the first century congregation, that seems pretty important."
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wantingtruth
you gave a good answer !
in fact , there isn't a such thing in Bible named "God's earthly organisation" (even spirit directed)
God has "people" on earth today .... the fact that his people has to obey His commandments make him "distinct" people like old Israel Deut 4:1-9
from Jesus onward this people is composed by all "congregations" of Christ , so, no-organisation
in the Congregation God appointed no GB , but : 1Cor 12
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
the wt "definition" for organisation somehow would fit with "God's Kingdom" , but the kingdom is only in Heaven now , not yet on earth !
the christians were taught by Jesus to pray for its coming on earth : only then , the "real" arrangement of God will be on earth !
until then, we live in expectation of its "coming"
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him;
2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;
3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
4 he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God.....
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Tuesday
I would respond... something like this....
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Borgia
You question bonafide:
"The First Century had congregations, preaching, Elders, Servants, C.O.'s, and so do we!
my response would be: The first century christian congregation also had Agabus. He prophesied that there would occur a famine. And so do the JW's modelling after the first century christian congregation.......they had their Freddy Franz......with one major difference:
(Acts 11:27-28) 27 Now in these days prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 One of them named Ag′a·bus rose and proceeded to indicate through the spirit that a great famine was about to come upon the entire inhabited earth; which, for that matter, did take place in the time of Claudius. . .
Cheers
Borgia
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blondie
Do you think that Captive to A Concept would help? It is really the start of their whole concept.