I roll around on the ground laughing until they leave...
How do you respond to the JW statement: "The First Century had congregations, preaching, Elders, Servants, C.O.'s, and so do we!
by BonaFide 32 Replies latest jw friends
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DNCall
I sent you a PM.
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AllTimeJeff
It's obviously wrong. In fact, I first noticed how Acts 15 describes Antioch as a key congregation when I was preparing a #1 talk as a MS. (something that Fred Franz alluded too in his famous 75 Gilead graduation talk) When you read Acts, one cannot escape the very clear impression that Paul pretty much did what he wanted over time. He met at first with Peter, James and John to establish himself, but that was really as much as he used the Apostles and older men. As time progressed, he went where he wanted. Acts 15 is the one occurrence where we read of the Apostles and older men gathering in Jerusalem. But there is no mandate here at all, certainly no indication that this is how congregations were governed.
There is also the very real "Pauline" dynamic. It's highly suggestive that you have the gospels, the letters of Paul, and a few others that make up the NT. The point being, it wasn't the supposed JW version of the GB that was in control, but Paul. One can see very clearly the lack of any reference to a Governing Body back then. Frequently, Paul used himself as his own authority. Take it or leave it.
There simply is no evidence of a GB setup by either Jesus or the Apostles. No consulting of a central body. It stands to reason (if the record is 100% historical) that whenever possible, on major issues, they would convene the Apostles for counsel. But that is far different from a small group of self appointed men. In fact, Acts 15 sounds like more of a large free for all, then the modern JW model where exclusivity and secrecy is the M.O.
Now the question is, how do you respond to a JW saying that the 1st century had congregations? Yes they did. Elders and MS? Yes.
And that is all that is mentioned.
A central GB? (a fact John could have alluded to in Revelation and his letters) No. Pioneers and classes/castes of ministers? No.
The entire structure of JW's is made up, with certain scriptures taken out of context to give it a sense of legitimacy. In that, they are no different then the Catholic model they frequently attack.
The truth is, the bible DOES NOT describe any organizational/hierarchal structure to run or operate Christianity. Just like the OT, there are "older men/elders" and their assistants. Truthfully, any organized group is going to have a structure that has experienced leaders and their protégés. That proves absolutely nothing. It's like claiming you invented breathing.
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OUTLAW
JW`s will defend any story the WBT$ makes up.......................I`ve heard JW`s say McDonalds is run by Satan.......I`ll have a "Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese Satan Burger,a side of Hot Coals,and molten Lava to drink" please!......................................LOL!!...OUTLAW
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Billy the Ex-Bethelite
ATJ,
And don't forget that after the epic meeting of the "Jerusalem Governing Body" saying that gentiles didn't need to be circumcised, what was one of the first things that Paul did? He circumcised Timothy.BF,
... Yeah, and the first century congregation required brothers to wear suits and ties, not have beards, sisters had to wear stockings and always have a headcovering handy. And they got their JW stuff from Madzay and Stoops websites. The first century congregation had district convention cleaning assignments and careful instructions on which motels to stay at during the DC. They were also required to wear their convention badges at all times in the convention cities. They had 5 meetings a week... which were actually only 2 meetings. And the first century congregation knew that the last days would begin in 1914... since it so clearly explained 1914 in scripture for everyone throughout eternity to clearly discern.Sorry BF, all the really good answers were already taken.
B the X
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mindmelda
IF they were really using first century Christianity as the guiding example, the congregations would appoint elders by laying on of hands to tranfer the holy spirit (and they would have works of the spirit, as that infers) prophets who had visions that actually came true and there would be female "deaconesses" or congregational servants.
Their denial of the works of the holy spirit is simply because they can't prove they can do these works, so they say it's not part of Christianity anymore.
This BS about "minister" only meaning a door to door or public evangelizer is ridiculous. Lydia is clearly shown as doing the work of a deaconess, organizing and teaching in the congregation held in her own home.
The way the WTS organization is set up is all about consolidation of power. They're giving less and less of it to fewer and fewer people because they don't like sharing.
And god forbid giving inferior and stupid women any! They're so misogynistic that I'm surprised they don't claim to be clones so they can say they never came near a vagina, even to be born.
The first century congregations didn't have anything like a judicial committee either. People who didn't wish to be Christians or people who had committed wrongs against another were handled one on one, then with someone else coming to mediate, if that didn't work and then just allowed to go their way if they didn't listen or change their ways.
If you had a grievance or dispute over behavior or doctrine, you brought it up right in the midst of the congregation and let the chips fall where they may. That's how Paul handled it when he thought Peter was being preferential to Jewish Christians and discriminating against Gentile Christians.
But, no "disfellowshipping" and judicial committes or field circus groups of inept half hearted preachers punching time clocks for God or even pouncing on unsuspecting stangers door to door. Evangelizing in public forums, itinerent preaching, was a gift that only some had, and they apparently enjoyed doing it as much as those who had other gifts of the spirit.
Read a few books on life in the time of Christ and the Apostles and early Christian history and it will bear little resemblance to what JWs do.
Sad that they think it does. But, who ever goes outside of their own literature to read about these things? Oh, right...me. *G*
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Vinny
My wife and I were asked that same question a couple years ago in an e-mail from a very fanatical Witness friend. Here is part of that e-mail from him:
"PLEASE read paragraphs 15& 16 in today's WT study article, April 15 (2007), the 2nd article... and let's assume I agree with all the things that have been bothering you... PLEASE let me know how you feel about these 2 paragraphs ??? As I read them I instantly thought of you, and how my heart hurts over your situation... remember, no need to get into why you are where you're at... we're assuming I agree with you about all that... but I am curious to know how you deal with the info in these 2 paragraphs in your heart & mind."
MY REPLY two years ago was: Hello M***, I read that WT when it came out in Feb. I also realize it was your recent WT Study lesson. But it does not make your case for JW's somehow being the "sole truth on earth". Sorry. For one thing, those "appointments", which helped establish Christianity, all ceased to exist by the end of the first century. Yet even with the disolution of that first century Christian congregation entirely, along with all those "appointments", we still have Christianity throughout the entire globe TODAY. So how did that happen? And before the Jehovah's Witness religion ever showed up Christianity was already GLOBAL! Why? Because so many other christians preached and shared what they read and knew. We also now have the COMPLETE BIBLE, which was not available back then. 2 Tim 3:16 says," All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." For those who believe the bible is from God, The bible itself teaches, counsels and disciplines these same people today. Those that read and apply it benefit from it. This is what helps people today. If you were a fornicator and read Jesus and Paul's words against fornication and the consequences that followed, then you have been counseled, reproved and helped by what you just read in the bible. Additionally, ALL Christian denominations have "elders" (older men) in forms of ministers, deacons, priests etc, as well, that are available and do help others in their churches. Jesus said he is the vine and his followers are the branches. There is no "religion" in between. Being a Christian means being a follower of Christ. People read the bible, people apply the bible in their lives and people share with others what the bible teaches. People also fellowship and exchange thoughts with other Christians often... even without some church. There is no need for being told by WT leaders what they can say, read, watch, do, who they can associate with etc. Furthermore the entire article just assumes that people want to leave the WT Society for selfish, unjustified reasons, just looking to go at it alone without reason. But the fact is M***, many leave because of The Watchtower Society long list of problems, such as which you have avoided again and again. Many see the hypocrisy and control along with the numerous unscriptural policies throughout the last century. Here check this out: http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm That Watchtower article is an attempt to try to stop the bleeding of many JW's leaving the organization itself. This is what has been happening. This is exactly what's happened to my family, as you well know. People are leaving the WT Society because of facts like what are now on your lap. Hope this helps. Have a good one! All the best, Vinny **** Back to May 09. And here are two threads from the JWD (that I also attached to my e-mail reply), posted at the same time the article itself came out. These will help answer your questions specifically. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/130685/1.ashx http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/135420/1.ashx
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JWdaughter
I would respond with the fact that the early church had such people appointed by the first one. Jesus. Then he appointed his apostles. They appointed Bishops throught the areas they ministered to. Ones that they trusted and knew had been taught the original faith. Those Bishops then appointed the new bishops to replace them. Sure, ravening wolves attack the flock, but there is a lot of church history from the age of the apostles until now that is essentially disregarded and ignored. A lot happened since then, and the WT itself had no apostolic authority and are building their religion on the interpretations of men 2000 years later, not any kind of holy tradition or understanding of what those scriptures mean. They just make it up as they go along, rather than looking to the earliest understandings of the scriptures by the apostles and their students. They blow off anything from those early years of the church that they don't like or that doesn't fit their 19th century adventist mindset.
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The Almighty Homer
Its true they had teachers and meetings with people asking questions, but one thing for sure they didn't sell
magazines and literature after the talks were over with, no wait a second I recall reading about the Watchtower
being chiseled out on stone tablets once a month and being sold for a Roman denarius ........sorry my mistake
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Elsewhere
> How do you respond to the JW statement: "The First Century had congregations, preaching, Elders, Servants, C.O.'s, and so do we!
Response: So?
Look... the only reason you would ask such a question is because you are still stuck thinking like a JW.