70 years = 607?

by allelsefails 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

scholar

isaacaustin
Post 2319
Firstly. your claim that the seventy years was only of domination is wrong and you are only being deluded by the Jonsson nonsense because Jeremiah empatically states that the land of Judahwould be desolated without an inhabitant. The seventy years could not have ended in 539 BCE with the Fall of Babylon because in that year they were still in Babylon and subject to her, the seventy years could only have ended with the return home of the Exiles and this is confirmed by Josephus.
Whether you think the celebrated WT scholars are 'pseudo' or not is of little consequence to scholar and he cares nothing for your insulting speech.
Sorry, the Bible in every which way confirms the 607 date as proven for the Fall of Jerusalem for you cannot prove any other candidate. Which date is it? 586 or 587? When apostates have got the matter sorted then and only then should you speak. Your calculation that from 539 and the 70 years one derives 609 is sound arithmetically but is unsound biblically for nothing happened in 609 BCE So your proposed beginning date was uneventful and this has always been a big problem for Jonsson and he has not yet been able to escape this dilemna.
scholar JW
allelsefails

Scholar - you stated "There is considerable evidence establishing the seven times with the Gentile Times and the said scholar has tabulated such evidence for the honest and dutiful inquirer" I have been a baptized witness since 1991. I was an elder for more than 6 years. I have read every verse of Daniel several times over and there is no evidence to suggest 7 years = Gentile times. Could you please provide me a link to any such scriptural thought? I don't know who Jonsson is. My thoughts are a result of my own honest bible study. Calling me braindead is not an effective way to prove your claim to christianity. Thanks for your posts, but don't denegrate me. I am a sincere bible student.
scholar

allelsefails
Post 44
You need to read matters more carefully particularly Daniel 4. The entire chapter indicates a fulfillment beyond Nebuchadnezzer for example verse 3 indicates that the context is that of God's Kingdom and this further indicated by verse 25, 32 and 34. Also, the use of 'times' rather than years obviously as an eschatological application because if a literal sense was only to be conveyed then the text would read seven years rather than seven times. These are just a few comments but even a cursory reading of the entire chapter certainly demonstrates a application beyond Neb.
scholar JW
allelsefails

Perhaps more than a cursory reading is necessary. Yes I see verse 3 recognizes that God has dominion over the earth and has a kingdom that lasts forever. vs 32 uses the times for years because that is what times means in this context. vs 34 is again Neb recognizing Jehovah's power to remove or restore an earthly king - which he had just done to Neb. What demonstrates a fulfillment of this prophecy beyond Neb? This is an amazing example of Jehovah's ability to remove and humble the most powerful leader of the time and then restore him after 7 years. Also to give his prophet advance knowledge of the event. Don't see "gentile times" anywhere. "eschatological application" because it used the word times? ..... WTS says: times = years *** re chap. 27 p. 184 pars. 26 God’s Kingdom Is Born! *** 26 How long did this respite for the seed of God’s woman last? Revelation 12:6 says 1,260 days. Revelation 12:14 calls the period a time, times, and half a time; in other words, three and a half times. In fact, both expressions stand for three and a half years, extending in the Northern Hemisphere from the spring of 1919 to the autumn of 1922. This was a period of refreshing recuperation and reorganization for the restored John class. .............. This is the scripture they give to show the length of 7 times! So times mean years of days in Daniel and has a much bigger fulfillment, but only regular years in Revelation? Sorry not reasonable. Might as well be Nostradamus if you're going to randomly apply rules and definitions to bible words and phrases to make them fit your own history. Allelsefails
isaacaustin

isaacaustin
Post 2319
Firstly. your claim that the seventy years was only of domination is wrong and you are only being deluded by the Jonsson nonsense because Jeremiah empatically states that the land of Judahwould be desolated without an inhabitant. The seventy years could not have ended in 539 BCE with the Fall of Babylon because in that year they were still in Babylon and subject to her, the seventy years could only have ended with the return home of the Exiles and this is confirmed by Josephus.
My reply: First of all I have not as of yet read COJ. I plan to at some point but have not yet. And you are wrong, Jeremiah does not say Jerusalem would be desolate without an inhabitant for 70 yrs. He says the nations will serve the king of babylon 70 yrs...and he goes on to list all the nations:
Jeremiah 25: 11 ' (S) This whole land will be a desolation and a horror, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon (T) seventy years.
Jeremiah 25:12 shows the 70 years ends with the fall of Babylon, in 539BCE, it had nothing to do with where the Jews were.
Whether you think the celebrated WT scholars are 'pseudo' or not is of little consequence to scholar and he cares nothing for your insulting speech.
My reply: Please provide the names and credentials of the 'celebrated Wt scholars'. If unable, I would have to assume they are simply self-proclaimed pseudo-scholars like yourself.
Sorry, the Bible in every which way confirms the 607 date as proven for the Fall of Jerusalem for you cannot prove any other candidate. Which date is it? 586 or 587?
My reply: Loud assertion on your part but no evidence. 586/7- you well know why there is wriggle room there. One year room here is much better than the 19/20 years you are off in claiming 607BCE.
When apostates have got the matter sorted then and only then should you speak.
My reply: This matter is sorted out well and overwhelming evidence in all arenas shows 586/7 as the correct date- be it by those who have apostatized from the WT cult or who have never been involved in it.
Your calculation that from 539 and the 70 years one derives 609 is sound arithmetically but is unsound biblically for nothing happened in 609 BCE
My reply:Except the fall of the Assyrian empire.
So your proposed beginning date was uneventful and this has always been a big problem for Jonsson and he has not yet been able to escape this dilemna.
scholar JW
12 'Then it will be (U) when seventy years are completed I will (V) punish the king of Babylon and that nation,' declares the LORD, 'for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and (W) I will make it an everlasting desolation.
isaacaustin

Your opinion that the seventy years stands for nothing more than Babylonian domination is only partially correct because Jeremiah was quite emphatic that the seventy year period was one of desolation of the land of Judah in order to fulfill prophecy. It is the failure to recognize that the seventy years was a period of servitude-captivity-desolation that undermines your belief and that of apostates and higher critics. JW's are faithful and loyal to the Bible and not to the opinions of men. It is true that in the course of interpreting Bible prophecy that we have made some mistakes but hese have been outweighed and negated by our successes such as the fulfilling of prophecy. There is nothing fanciful about 607 and 1914 for these dates and events are part of eschatology which requires close attention to history both ancient and modern and the strictures of God's Word revolving around the interpretation of the seven times of Daniel 4.
What you need to do is to examine the Bible more closely and use your thinking faculties rather than being deceived by lazy, evil and deceitful apostates.
scholar JW
My reply: Psuedoscholar...all your assertive posts have zero substance....This is your only statement that is not fluff: was quite emphatic that the seventy year period was one of desolation of the land of Judah in order to fulfill prophecy. And it is wrong. Jeremiah was quite emphatic that the nations would serve the king of Babylon 70 yrs. He did not say Judah would be a land of desolation 70 yrs. Everything else is fluff, wordy yet says absolutely nothing.
isaacaustin

psuedoscholar...Nowehre does the bible state, and I mean NOWHERE, that Jesus in Luke 21 in speaking of the Gentile times associated them with the 7 times of Nebu's insanity. Nowhere does it state that these 7 times are 7 years. Jumping to Rev and equating to the 3 and 1/2 times is completely arbitrary. Nowehre are we told to then jump to Numbers and apply a day for a year to these 7 times (that we arbitrarily equated to 7 years from an unrelated verse). Actually let's backtrack- nowhere are we told that the 7 times of Nebu have a fulfilment beyond Nebu- especially that Dan 4 says that it was fulfilled in Nebu. And even if we make all thse leaps of logic...no where is it stated that this 2520 year period begins at the destruction of Jerusalem. And even if it did, you have a worng starting date. But we haven't even made it that far yet, since every other facet of this equation is a bunch of unrelated texts linked erroneously.
isaacaustin

So pseudo...Your first error is stating that Jerusalem would be desolated for 70 years when the text only says Judah would be desolated. The 70 yrs applies clearly to Babylonian rule. Jeremiah 25 clearly, clearly says that when the 70 yrs of rule were up Babylon would be punished- which they were.
11 ' (S) This whole land will be a desolation and a horror, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon (T) seventy years.
12 'Then it will be (U) when seventy years are completed I will (V) punish the king of Babylon and that nation,' declares the LORD, 'for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and (W) I will make it an everlasting desolation.
The 70 years were a period of servitude for Judah and all the surrounding nations...desolation only coming to those that refused to serve Babylon. Jeremiah 27:7,8
7 " (O) All the nations shall serve him and his son and his grandson (P) until the time of his own land comes; then (Q) many nations and great kings will make him their servant.
8 "It will be, that the nation or the kingdom which (R) will not serve him, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and which will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with the (S) sword, with famine and with pestilence," declares the LORD, "until I have destroyed it by his hand.
If a nation did serve as a vassal nation they would be allowed to remain in theor own land, it would not be removed and desolated- Jeremiah 27;11
11 "But the nation which will (W) bring its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will (X) let remain on its land," declares the LORD, "and they will till it and dwell in it."'"
They didn't so ended up paying the price.Judah did not serve Babylon and then later paid the price. The answer lies firstly in the fact that Babylon assumed control over Assyria in the year 609 BCE. The 70 yrs of servitude did not end in 537, it ended in 539 when Babylon fell. the prophecy did not refer to Judah alone but all the nations as a reading of jeremiah 25 clearly shows. The 70 yr period of servitude for the nations ended when Babylon was called to account by Jehovah. That date was 539 BCE when Babylon fell to the Medes and Persians. 609-539= 70 yrs
Judah had the opportunity to serve babylon in its own land- verse 17
17 "Do not listen to them; serve the king of Babylon, and live! Why should this city (AI) become a ruin?
OnTheWayOut

...these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’ - Jeremiah 25: 8-11
I agree with Ultimate Reality on page 1 of this thread. But I am going to spin this a bit back toward reality.
If prophecies were written afterward, as I believe, there should be no problem with them getting it right. Well, maybe there is a problem.
The author of the book of Jeremiah would know whether the Jews were captive for 70 years or 67 or 71 years or whatever.
So the author would most likely be indicating that the time period started with Tyre being taken captive and come out to 70 years of some nations serving Babylon.
Here's my spin to reality. The "prophecy" is vague enough that we can argue over how to apply it for a reason.
If a prophet says some odd number like "Judah serving Babylon for 63/67/68/71 years," then everyone would know this prophecy was written afterward if it were that accurate. A nice round number like "70" fits a prophecy much better. Remember that the author wasn't interested in what people would think more than 2000 years later about what he wrote and what he meant. He was interested in inspiring Jews of his time period.
Mad Dawg

Scholar, can you show from the Bible only that the destruction of Jerusalem was 2520 years before 1914?

70 years = 607?

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