My understanding is that stauros in its simplest form means upright pole...but can also mean a variety of similar structures, including the cross. While we can not dogmatically claim Jesus was hung on a cross we equally can not claim that he wasn't. However, Scriptures and history do seem to lend to his being impaled on a cross.
Jesus not crucified on torture stake. Impossible!
by sacolton 250 Replies latest watchtower bible
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reniaa
isaac tell me what questions I missed because I have tried to answer all on here although it's begining to get repetitive.
Again all time Jeff it doesn't matter if Jesus died on a stake or not although I think the scriptorial evidence of his own words indicate crux simplex aka stake without crosspiece.
what is important is that the word cross assumes that a crosspice is used and this is not what the original wording indicates. Cross defines what isn't originally made clear. If the writers wanted us to know clearly what type of death instrument he died on they would have described it or made it's shape clearer. the only reference is Jesus's words that as I said point to just one stake without crosspiece being used.
Have any of you considered that because the wording is so brief that in this case a stake was just a stake?
The best this whole thread has proved is that
1/ Romans had many methods of excution being stakes with crosspieces and at least one without
2/ Christians of later centuries influenced by methods they themselves had seen by romans assumed Jesus died on a cross piece stake.
this is all secular evidence when the eye-witnesses make absolutely no indication of shape.
That is why I don't like cross and why I prefer the greater anomonity of torture stake it is more about Jesus being killed than what he died on the same with impalement as the original writers intended.
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reniaa
good question sir82 the fact is that is the word they would use but if further need for shape like showing it was a cross the inspired writers would have given further description maybe Jesus would have said his own arms where outstretched but he didn't and they under inspiration didn't! the shape was deliberately kept anonymous!
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isaacaustin
Reniaa,
Pswdprottected asked:
I wonder who we should follow first? Christ or leaders on earth?
I asked:
Reniaa, can you show me even 1 verse where we are told we need to find the human channel that leads us to Jesus?
Password asked:
I'm still waiting for her to show me one verse from the Christian Greek Scriptures where the Father is referred to as Jehovah/YHWH.
tenyearsafter asked:
1) Why did Jesus never pray using Jehovah's name...especially when he instructed his followers to address their prayers to the Father (no mention of Jehovah) in the model prayer at Matthew 6: 9-13?
2) I totally understand your interest in debating your beliefs on this forum, but why would you defend the very beliefs you so strongly believe in by defying the very channel that feeds you the food you value so highly? Someone asked earlier...would you let the Elders know you regularly frequented this forum?...would you openly speak with these same individuals in person and in public view
I asked:
Post 1006 of 1011
Since 4/21/2005Reniaa...how come when quoting Heb 11:17 in stating we must be obedient to our leaders you paid no attention to verse 7? If you did you would see this was in the bounds of the leaders teaching the word of God. The WT goes so far beyond the word of God this verse could not apply to their leaders.
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thomas15
Reniaa,
tenyearsafter makes a very good point but it needs to be simplified. OK, I accept the challange.
All you have to do is reenact the act in a scientific way. Take a full size human dummy and the Biblical discription of the event. In order to hold the body weight, accomodate the length of the body with arms held high, the sign above and say 1 or 2 feet of timber in the ground. Then it must be thick enough to support the body weight and receive the nails without splitting. And also, it has to be robust enough to NOT FAIL since the Romans would not tolerate a botched execution any more than we would today.
My calculations indicate a 12 or 13 foot timber that is 6" x 6"
Go the the lumber store and (try to) pick up a 12 foot long 6X6. Two healthy strong men will struggle to pick this lumber up.
There is no way Jesus or anyone else for that matter carried his cross to the execution site if it was just a stake. It is impossible.
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rebel8
This thread is the same as all the others, Reniaa. You post something that's not quite on topic and people try to explain the evidence to you, then you say you "disagree with evidence" (doublespeak for "I refuse to believe the truth if I don't like it.")
I live in the home state of wt world headquarters and have seen many people with watchtower tie tacks and other items. You will notice that someone from New Jersey (right near wt headquarters too) said the same thing....and someone from California (home to Beth Sarim). Some khs have the wt logo painted indoors behind the altar too. Tomato, tomahto. Not different than "idolatrous" churches.
If your cohorts on another continent haven't yet caught up with this practice, that doesn't have any bearing on actual practices here in the State of Borg. This is about the 3rd time I'm telling you: Your lack of personal experience doesn't change other people's past experiences.
jws wear watchtower jewelry. Here's a great opportunity to practice accepting something inconsequential, even if you don't like it--an opportunity for personal growth--don't let it pass you by. Sit and meditate on it, sit with the discomfort. When excuses and rationalizations come to mind, let them float on by without focusing on them. On the horizon is the truth. You can do it.
the appostles and all the first century christians didn't feel the need to were a miniture death instrument around their necks
Please explain how you know this.
I am genuinely sad for you. You are spending an awful lot of time and energy to justify your church's teachings and actions. It reminds me of an alcoholic rationalizing why it's ok to keep drinking beer excessively because it's not vodka.
Password Protected
But Christians don't worship a crucified saviour on a cross.
What?
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AllTimeJeff
Again all time Jeff it doesn't matter if Jesus died on a stake or not although I think the scriptorial evidence of his own words indicate crux simplex aka stake without crosspiece. what is important is that the word cross assumes that a crosspice is used and this is not what the original wording indicates. Cross defines what isn't originally made clear. If the writers wanted us to know clearly what type of death instrument he died on they would have described it or made it's shape clearer. the only reference is Jesus's words that as I said point to just one stake without crosspiece being used.
My point isn't the postulation on crosses v. straight beams. It is a small matter of biblical exegesis, one of theology.
The broader context is the absolutely huge deal that Jehovah's Witnesses make of it.
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rsp.91par.3Cross***
"Various figures of crosses are found everywhere on Egyptian monuments and tombs, and are considered by many authorities as symbolical either of the phallus [a representation of the male sex organ] or of coition. . . . In Egyptian tombs the crux ansata [cross with a circle or handle on top] is found side by side with the phallus."—AShortHistoryofSex-Worship (London, 1940), H. Cutner, pp. 16, 17; see also TheNon-ChristianCross, p. 183.
So lets get this straight, a cross is more of a phallus symbol then a straight pole? C'mon....
The whole sum of a JW's argument when talking to a Christian about the cross is
1) Convince the householder that he/she DOES worship the cross. Do you know how many times I ran into "But I don't worship the cross." No, we must construct our straw man, then tear it down, and trick the person to go against what they clearly stated.
2) Convince the householder that the Cross is an idol. A cross is frequently kissed, hugged, and cried over. So is a Watchtower. I saw this my entire life. In Cameroon, when the new magazines were in, brothers and sisters would take one, kiss it, hold it to their heart, because it was important to them and it represented something important to them. Do you think they should be disfellowshipped for idolatry? Or do we acknowledge that they were merely demonstrating their appreciation for something they find value in? Why would we imply anything different with a cross? If it isn't a big deal how Jesus died, and a person merely owns a cross and values it because of what it represents to them, yet this is somehow (unstated in the bible) idolatry, then no one should ever show appreciation for anything produced by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
The Cross is a controversy that is made up. It doesn't matter. Yet, JW's make it a big deal precisely because it gives them a chance to wedge doubt and other trivial matters that aren't worth a damn in the supposed worship of god.
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AllTimeJeff
A great article on freeminds.org
Did Jesus Die on a Stake or a Cross?
Apologies if this was already posted earlier....
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Colton
Again, Jesus COULD NOT have survived so long on a crux simplex with his arms above his head. It's impossible! Why do you ignore this very fact?
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purplesofa
As an observer on this thread, thank-you for all the research and input here.
Very true Rebel8's post, although I don't feel like reniaa is even close to this, but hopefully those that have viewed this thread and have learned alot from it and they are going through this process. It can cause a great deal of discomfort.
Here's a great opportunity to practice accepting something inconsequential, even if you don't like it--an opportunity for personal growth--don't let it pass you by. Sit and meditate on it, sit with the discomfort. When excuses and rationalizations come to mind, let them float on by without focusing on them. On the horizon is the truth. You can do it.