Jesus not crucified on torture stake. Impossible!

by sacolton 250 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    Unwittingly the Germans, during WWII, they experimented with many, many ways for killing people, efficiently and quickly. Their records show that when a person is suspended with their hands over their head, as they would be on the JW "torture stake," they can survive for approximately one hour. If their feet are tied down, as well, the time is reduced to about 15 minutes.

    IIRC correctly Jesus and the two criminals lived for about three hours before Jesus died and the other two were killed by breaking their thigh bones.
    Jesus was the first to die - He suffered on the Cross for 6 hours - from the 3rd hr. (9 AM) (Mark 15:25) to the 9th hr. (3 PM) (Mark 15:34-37).The two thieves' deaths were hastened by breaking their legs, thereby not allowing them to push up on their feet in order to allow them to breathe.
    by Athanasian Creed


    We see that Jesus was on the cross 6 hours, his feet were nailed down, and research shows someone in this condition can only live for 15 minutes.

    The full weight of the body hanging with the hands directly over the head will cause asphyxiation in only a few minutes. A healthy man cannot hang in that position alive for six hours. This is not to say that that method of torture was not used, just that those three men would not have lived that long had their arms not been spread out away from the head using a cross beam of some sort.

  • Mickey mouse
    Mickey mouse

    Ah but Jesus was a perfect man!

  • sir82
    sir82

    Very interesting.

    Do you have a link or source for the German experiments?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Ah but Jesus was a perfect man!

    If that were true, then perfect men die quicker than the others. According to Mark 15:44 Pilate is surprised that Jesus is already dead...

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    http://www.frugalsites.net/jesus/welcome.htm

    Information on this site suggests that, instead of 3 crosses lined up, Jesus and the two criminals were hanged in a semi-circle on a tree.

    If so, this would explain John 19:32, 33 where the soldiers approach the criminals first to break their legs, and lastly Jesus.

    It would also help explain Jesus' cryptic statement at Luke 23:31, "If they do this to a green tree, what about the dry?"

    Isn't it liberating to be able to do our own research and form our own conclusions?

    Sylvia

  • minimus
    minimus

    I too think this is interesting. I'd like verification as it makes a strong counterpoint.

  • Mary
    Mary

    It's funny that you found this this sacolton, as I did a thread on this exact same thing just over 2 years ago:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/120465/1/PROOF-JESUS-DIED-ON-A-CROSS

    I should have entitled it "Evidence Jesus died on a Cross", not 'proof', but if the subject ever comes up with the elders, (or any other JW for that matter), I'll be showing them this......

  • besty
    besty

    the most popular article on freeminds.org confirms this - over 1000 people per week are reading this!

    http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/jesus/the-cross.html

    Randy has documented medical evidence to support this conclusion

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    The cross is a pagan symbol,why would Pagan Roman soldiers nail Jesus to a Pagan symbol?.................Jesus Dined on a Steak!!.......(I don`t have my regular smileys..All I could come up with was a pizza.)......................LOL!!...OUTLAW

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    "this form [crux simplex] was later elaborated into the 'crux compacta,' of which there were, IN THE TIMES OF CHRIST, two varieties the crux commissa ('St. Anthony's cross') shaped like a T, and the crux immissa (the 'Latin cross') shaped, as we generally know it, like a t." A New Standard Bible Dictionary, edited by Jacobs, Nourse and Zenos(N.Y. & London, 1926. P.160).

    "Stauros means properly a stake, and is the translation not merely of the Latin CRUX (CROSS), but of palus (stake) AS WELL. As used in the NT, however, IT REFERS EVIDENTLY NOT TO THE SIMPLE STAKE USED FOR IMPALING, of which widespread punishment crucifixion was a refinement, BUT TO THE MORE ELABORATE CROSS USED BY THE ROMANS IN THE TIME OF CHRIST..." (Jesu von Nazara, iii. 398, Eng. tr. vi. 125). -"A Dictionary of the Bible", Vol. I., James Hastings Ed., Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1951. P.528.

    Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon of Classical Greek
    anastaur-oô, = foreg., Hdt. 3.125, au=Hdt. 6.30, al.; identical with anaskolopizô , au=Hdt. 9.78:--
    Pass., Thuc. 1.110, Plat. Gorg. 473c.
    II. in Rom. times, affix to a cross, crucify, Plb. 1.11.5, al., Plu.Fab.6, al.
    2. crucify afresh, Ep.Hebr.6.6.
    anastaur-ôsis, eôs, hê, crucifixion, X.Eph.4.2.

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/lexica.htmlhttp://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/enggreek?

    It is clear that "Dueling dictionaries" will not resolve the issue. Just as some denominations made "translations" of the Bible to reflect their beliefs, e.g. the JW-NWT and LDS "Bible". Dictionaries also have been written to favor a particular belief or denomination.

    A final word on the dictionary issue, it is interesting to note that in the country of Greece, their language has always been Greek. Modern Greek dictionaries list as the only definition of stauros, not stake, but cross. It is only reasonable to assume that the Greeks know what words mean in their own language.

    Some argue that the word "cross" didn't appear in the Bible until the time of Jerome, at the end of the third century. "If the NT writers had meant "cross" why didn't they write "cross" instead of Stauros?" The fact is the NT writers did write "cross"! They wrote the Greek word stauros which the entire Greek speaking world, then and now, immediately understood to mean "cross", in reference to an instrument of execution.

    See the writings of the first and second century early church Bishops and leaders, below, they wrote stauros, in Greek. They also described what they meant by stauros, i.e. as a man standing with his arms outstretched in prayer. The mast and cross arms of a ship. A bird in flight. Having five extremities. The ancient Hebrew letter taw/tav, which was written as X or + . The Greek letter Tau and the Latin T. A stake with a tranverse beam. And even the crossed spits used to roast the passover lamb. Two of the leaders quoted here were disciples of the original apostles, one of John and one of Paul.

    Not only was stauros understood as "cross" to the Greek speaking believers. In the early Jewish writings, of the 1st century, stauros was well known, and understood as "cross". See early Talmudic and Mishnaic writings cited in, "The Jewish Encyclopedia", 1901, below.

    The Roman philosopher Seneca, 4 BC- 65AD.
    "At the time of Christ, however, there were THREE BASIC MODES of crucifixion referred to by the Roman philosopher Seneca: "I see," he says, "THREE CROSSES, not indeed of one sort, but fashioned in different ways; one sort suspending by the head persons bent toward the earth, others transfixing them through their secret parts [crux simplex], others extending their arms on a PATIBULUM (crux composita)." (Consol. ad Marciam, XX).

    Early Church Bishops and Leaders

    The Epistle of Barnabas,
    found appended to the Codex Sinaiticus, indicates this type of crucifixion! (70-79 A.D.)
    chapter 12:

    Again, when Israel is made war upon by foreigners [Amalekites], He [God] speaks to Moses; and in order to warn them [the Israelites], by means of this very war, that they had been delivered over because of their sins, the Spirit suggests to Moses that he should make a TYPE OF THE CROSS and of Him who was to suffer. He thus intimates that, unless they hope in Him, they will forever be subject to war. Moses, therefore, placed shield upon shield where the fray was thick; and then, standing where he towered above all the rest, he EXTENDED HIS ARMS. The result was that Israel was again victorious; then, when he lowered them [his arms], the men were again cut down. Why? They were to understand that they could not be saved unless they put their trust in Him. -- Ancient Christian Writers: The Works of the Fathers in Translation, edited by Quasten and Plumpe. Verses 2-3.

    Cyprian, [a.d. 200-258.] Bishop of Carthage (a.d. 248), which he held until his martyrdom (a.d. 258).

    Treatise XII.1 Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews.

    By this sign of the cross also Amalek was conquered by Jesus through Moses. In Exodus Moses said to Jesus: "Choose thee out men, and go forth, and order yourselves with Amalek until the morrow. Behold, I will stand on the top of the hill, and the rod of God in mine hand. And it came to pass, when Moses lifted up his hands, Israel prevailed; but when Moses had let down his hands, Amalek waxed strong. But the hands of Moses were heavy; and they took a stone, and placed it under him, and he sat upon it and Aaron and Hur held up his hands, on the one side and on the other side; and the hands of Moses were made steady even to the setting of the sun. And Jesus routed Amalek and all his people. That in this sign of the Cross is salvation for all people who are marked on their foreheads. In Ezekiel the Lord says: "Pass through the midst of Jerusalem, and thou shalt mark the sign Tau upon the men's foreheads, who groan and grieve for the iniquities which are done in the midst of them." Also in the same place: "Go and smite, and do not spare your eyes. Have no pity on the old man, and the youth, and the virgin, and slay little children and women, that they may be utterly destroyed. But ye shall not touch any one upon whom the Tau is written, and begin with my holy places themselves."

    http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers2/ANF...#P7907_2659601

    Dialogue of Justin ca. 130 AD
    Chapter LXXXVI.-There are Various Figures in the Old Testament of the Wood of the Cross by Which Christ Reigned.
    Chapter LXXXIX.-The Cross Alone is Offensive to Trypho on Account of the Curse, Yet It Proves that Jesus is Christ.
    Chapter XC.-The Stretched-Out Hands of Moses Signified Beforehand the Cross.
    Chapter XCI.-The Cross Was Foretold in the Blessings of Joseph, and in the Serpent that Was Lifted Up.
    Chapter XCVII.-Other Predictions of the Cross of Christ.
    Chapter CXXXVIII.-Noah is a Figure of Christ, Who Has Regenerated Us by Water, and Faith, and Wood: [I.e., The Cross.]
    Chapter XL.-He Returns to the Mosaic Laws, and Proves that They Were Figures of the Things Which Pertain to Christ.

    "and that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb,108 which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb."

    http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/...#P9223_2585270

    Tertullian, Ad Nationes I, CHAP. XII.(10)

    "--THE CHARGE OF WORSHIPPING A CROSS. THE HEATHENS THEMSELVES MADE MUCH OF CROSSES IN SACRED THINGS; NAY, THEIR VERY IDOLS WERE FORMED ON A CRUCIAL FRAME.


    Every piece of timber(8) which is fixed in the ground in an erect position is a part of a cross, and indeed the greater portion of its mass. But an entire cross is attributed to us, with its transverse beam,(9) of course, and its projecting seat. Because even our own body assumes as its natural position the latent and concealed outline of a cross. Since the head rises upwards, and the back takes a straight direction, and the shoulders project laterally, if you simply place a man with his arms and hands outstretched, you will make the general outline of a cross."

    http://ccel.org/fathers/ANF-03/tertu...ationes_1.html

    [b]Tertullian, Against Marcion.

    Tertullian, Against Marcion, CHAP. XIX.
    --PROPHECIES OF THE DEATH OF CHRIST.

    "He signed them with that very seal of which Ezekiel spake: "The Lord said unto me, Go through the gate, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set the mark Tau upon the foreheads of the men."(14) Now the Greek letter Tau and our own letter T is the very form of the cross, which He predicted would be the sign on our 341 foreheads in the true universal Jerusalem."

    http://ccel.org/fathers/ANF-03/tertu...marcion_3.html

    Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 2, St. Ireneaus of Lyons (c.130 A.D.-c.200A.D.). St. Ireneaus is the disciple of St. Polycarp, who in turn is the disciple of the apostle John.

    "The very form of the cross, too, has five extremities,(7) two in length, two in breadth, and one in the middle, on which [last] the person rests who is fixed by the nails."

    http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/ANF-....html#Section1

    The Octavius of Minucius Felix. 205 AD.
    We assuredly see the sign of a cross, naturally, in the ship when it is carried along with swelling sails, when it glides forward with expanded oars; and when the military yoke is lifted up, it is the sign of a cross; and when a man adores God with a pure mind, with hands outstretched. Thus the sign of the cross either is sustained by a natural reason, or your own religion is formed with respect to it.

    http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers2/ANF-04/anf04-34.htm

    Ignatius letter to the Trallians. Ignatius of Antioch (born ? -- died (apparently martyred) ~110 CE in Rome) Disciple of John
    11:1 Shun ye therefore those vile offshoots that gender a deadly fruit, whereof if a man taste, forthwith he dieth. 11:2 For these men are not the Father's planting for if they had been, they would have been seen to be branches of the Cross, and their fruit imperishable-the Cross whereby He through His passion inviteth us, being His members.

    http://wesley.nnc.edu/noncanon/fathe...ius/igtral.htm

    Archeological evidence of crosses in 1st Century Jerusalem tombs.

    Many falsely argue that the cross did not appear in Christian art or use until the time of Constantine. Evidently the early believers didn't read Hislop (TTB), Russell (JW), or Armstrong (WWCG), for at this site, "The Jerusalem Christian Review", are more than eight articles describing tombs and burial vaults in 1st century Jerusalem, with inscriptions of crosses. In many of the photos the inscriptions are clearly visible. These are the sites; Volume 9, Issues 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 9, and 10 and Volume 10, Issue 2

    http://christian.edu/

    A most unusual source which documents that the T or tau cross was the instrument that Romans used in the 1st century to execute those sentenced to death, "The Jewish Encyclopedia."

    Jewish Encyclopedia – Crucifixion

    The crosses used were of different shapes. Some were in the form of a T , others in that of a St Andrews cross, X , while others again were in four parts, + . The most common kind consisted of a stake ("palus") firmly embedded in the ground ("crucem figere") before the condemned arrived at the place of execution. (Cicero, "Verr" v.12; Josephus, "B.J." vii, 6, § 4) and a cross-beam ("patibulum") bearing the "titulus" the inscription naming the crime (Matt. xxvii. 37; Luke xxiii. 38; Suetonius, "Cal" 38)* * *

    This cruel way of carrying into effect the sentence of death was introduced into Palestine by the Romans. Josephus brands the first crucifixion as an act of unusual cruelty ("Ant." xiii. 14, § 2) and as illegal. But many Jews underwent this extreme penalty (ib. xx. 6, §§ 2; "Vita," § 25; "B.J." ii, 12, § 6, 14, § v. 11, § 1; Philo, ii, 529). * * *

    The Jewish Encyclopedia, KTAV Publishing House, Isodore Singer Ed., 1901, Vol. 4,
    CROSS, pp. 368-9
    1. The stake; stauros= Tzalob(tsadheh, lamed, waw, beth) or tzloba'(tsadheh, lamed, yod, beth, aleph) used by Romans at crucifixion. This was so familiar to Jews in New Testament times that they spoke frequently of, "men carrying their cross before them while going to be executed"( Gen. R. lvi.; Pesik. R. xxxi., ed. Buber, 143b), as did Jesus (Matt. x. 38, xvi. 24, and parallels; see CRUCIFIXION).

    2. A specific Christian symbol; Termed by the Jews, shin, tav, yod - waw, ayin, resh, beth ("warp and woof"); also tsadheh, lamed, mem ("idol"). . .
    (Isserles, Shulhan 'Aruk, Yore De'ah, 141, 1; R. Mordecai to 'Ab. Zarah iii. in the name of R. Eleazar b. Jacob of Worms)

    The cross as a Christian symbol or "seal" came into use at least as early as the second century (see "Apost. Const." iii. 17; Epistle of Barnabas, xi-xii.; Justin, "Apologia." i. 55-60, "Dial. *** Tryph." 85-97); and marking of a cross upon the forehead and the chest was regarded as a talisman against the power of demons (Tertullian, "De Corona." iii. Cyprian, "Testimonies," xi. 21-22; Lactantius, "Divine Institutiones," iv. 27, and elsewhere). Accordingly the Christian Fathers had to defend themselves as early as the second century, against the charge of being worshippers of the cross, as may be learned from Tertullian, "Apologia," xii., xvii., and Minucius Felix, "Octavius," xxix."

    Jewish author and lawyer Haim Cohn
    "In cases of crucifixion, however, the scourging was particularly elaborate: the convict was first UNDRESSED, THEN HIS HEAD WAS COVERED, then a forked instrument with two prongs (furca) was placed on his back and his two hands bound to it, each hand to one of the prongs and thus the convict had to drag the furca to the place of crucifixion; once arrived there, he was flagellated while remaining bound to the furca." -- "The Trial and Death of Jesus", KTAV Publishing House, New York. 1977. Pages 376-377.

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