WANTED ! JW Apologist

by wobble 389 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • oompa
    oompa
    REN:
    4/ Witnesses are not perfect, niether are the gb they have made mistakes in the past and continue to do so but does imperfection make a religion or org invalid?
    5/ What do you want in a religion you feel is blessed by God's holy spirit, what would be it's fruitage? did any of the bible's God-chosen religions show this fruitage other than Jesus himself?

    4. yes imperfection of teaching makes a religion invalid if it is claiming to only teach the truth, has gods stamp of aproval, and is guided and directed by him..................the answer to your question should be obvious........never in the bible did god allow his people to teach falsehoods....not once

    5. i would at least expect them to print only the truth of the bible, and not a fraudulant bible that adds the name jehovah to the NT 237 times!

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    HI guys not Gone just been away for a few days with my family it's half-term week here.

    After reading your replies I have a couple of questions for you.

    1/ why do you keep Jw's separate from the rest of christianity? when I judge which christian faith I believe in because they are so diverse now I believe you have to use the same bible standard for all but I get the impression you will accept in others what you won't accept in JW's?

    Actually Reniaa, the Wt puts itself in a different category from other Christian faiths by 1: claiming to be God's sole channel of truth to makind and 2: claiming ot be different from every other faith. Yet at the same time they beg for the same leniency given to other faiths when wrong.

    2/ which leads me to this question all church leaders consider they have been given the right to lead and the direction their faith goes from the lowliest faith where the local shaman decides the direction of the tribe to the biggest Religions in all the world, their leaders all claim special direction to lead and people either agree or disagree, the Jws are no different. Even non-religious orgs claim special knowledge usually by ....being voted in, conquest, royal hereditory, Power, Money, learning or experience, they make the decisions for the whole group.

    If someone goes to prison for a certain drug aka marijuana usage in some countries it's legal in others it isn't, by what right do the governments or judges have to decide what is legal or not?

    this is the biggest thing I cannot understand with the viewpoint of ex-witnesses they argue that somehow gb are not allowed to rule but accept it in every other aspects of their life's? If you brake the rules at work then you will lose your job would you feel hard done by if you are sacked for doing a sackable offence by your work's standard even if you consider it silly? but you knew before you went into the job it was a sackable offence?

    Again, why are we comparing God's org, which the WT claims to be so different from the world to what the WT terms a worldly system? Does the WT regime mirror the personality of jesus in any sense? Do they want mercy or sacrifice? The answer is obvious.

    3/ When Jesus comes to Judge the bible is very clear he will be judging the conditions of mens hearts towards God and the bible is also very clear what it considers wrongdoings aka fornication, yes

    homosexuality, yes

    adultery, yes

    idolatry, yes

    blood, nice try Reniaa to sneak blood in- the Bible does not condemn or even address blood transfusions

    stealing, lying, murdering.- yes, yes, yes

    If you no longer believe in Jw's does it mean you can do these things as long as you believe in Jesus?

    no longer beleiving in JWs has nothing to do with beleif in Jesus. Nice try to equate the 2.

    4/ Witnesses are not perfect, niether are the gb they have made mistakes in the past and continue to do so but does imperfection make a religion or org invalid?

    An org setting themslef up in Jesus role and prophecying falsely? Yes it does.

    5/ What do you want in a religion you feel is blessed by God's holy spirit, what would be it's fruitage? did any of the bible's God-chosen religions show this fruitage other than Jesus himself?

    Jesus intensive and love...

  • BizzyBee
    BizzyBee
    1/ why do you keep Jw's separate from the rest of christianity?

    JWs set this precedent. They consider themselves quite separate from the rest of Christianity (Christendom) and in fact, condemn all other religions, including Christianity.

    2/ - /5

    These questions concern submission to authority, religious and legal. I choose to obey the laws of the land in which I live because it makes sense morally and practically speaking. Submission to the GB of JWs does not make sense in any way to me.

    6/ if an evolutionist makes a new discovery............so changing an established evolutionary belief for 100's of years ........... why do you accept this flip-flop if you are an atheist?

    I know you are applying this example to the GB.* But consider this: The WTS has claimed to use the Bible - not emerging scientific findings - as its only source for over 100 years. Yet, their beliefs, doctrines and practices have changed dramatically over that time. Why? The Bible hasn't changed (other than when the WTS chose to write their own version) so the information in the Bible has been available, unchanging, from which they formulate their doctrines and predictions. Why the need to flip-flop? Where does 'new' information come from when you are talking about a book that is thousands of years old?

    .

    *BTW - You seem to propose that evolution and atheism are synonymous. Evolution is a (widely-accepted) theory based on scientific evidence, not a faith. Scientific theories consider and adapt to incorporate new evidence as it becomes available. That is not a 'flip-flop.' BTW Darwin did not purport that his findings negated the existence of God. He was a theist for most of his life, but toward the end described himself as an agnostic.

  • besty
    besty
    1/ why do you keep Jw's separate from the rest of christianity? when I judge which christian faith I believe in because they are so diverse now I believe you have to use the same bible standard for all but I get the impression you will accept in others what you won't accept in JW's?

    the WTS seperate themselves as per the God Sole Channel doctrine and the Babylon the Great doctrine, so they invite special criticism from former members who have been damaged by them in a variety of ways - some children even being sacrificed for the want of a banned blood fraction

    2/ which leads me to this question all church leaders consider they have been given the right to lead and the direction their faith goes from the lowliest faith where the local shaman decides the direction of the tribe to the biggest Religions in all the world, their leaders all claim special direction to lead and people either agree or disagree, the Jws are no different. Even non-religious orgs claim special knowledge usually by ....being voted in, conquest, royal hereditory, Power, Money, learning or experience, they make the decisions for the whole group. If someone goes to prison for a certain drug aka marijuana usage in some countries it's legal in others it isn't, by what right do the governments or judges have to decide what is legal or not?

    erm....."we the people...." etc

    this is the biggest thing I cannot understand with the viewpoint of ex-witnesses they argue that somehow gb are not allowed to rule but accept it in every other aspects of their life's? If you brake the rules at work then you will lose your job would you feel hard done by if you are sacked for doing a sackable offence by your work's standard even if you consider it silly? but you knew before you went into the job it was a sackable offence?

    employers typically don't retain workers based on mind control techniques and then promote practices that allow child abuse and child sacrifice, destruction of family life, 'end of the world' false prophesy etc etc - there are laws to protect employees but few laws to protect the spiritually vulnerable - this I believe is anachronistic and will lead to the demise of organised religion - *eventually*

    3/ When Jesus comes to Judge the bible is very clear he will be judging the conditions of mens hearts towards God and the bible is also very clear what it considers wrongdoings aka fornication, homosexuality, adultery, idolatry, blood, stealing, lying, murdering. If you no longer believe in Jw's does it mean you can do these things as long as you believe in Jesus?

    I'll leave that for someone who believes in magick men in the sky taking an interest in all our sex lives and whether wearing a tie on Sunday is important OR NOT....

    4/ Witnesses are not perfect, niether are the gb they have made mistakes in the past and continue to do so but does imperfection make a religion or org invalid?

    No, the entire concept of organised religion is fundamentally flawed long before 'imperfection' rears its handsome head.

    5/ What do you want in a religion you feel is blessed by God's holy spirit, what would be it's fruitage? did any of the bible's God-chosen religions show this fruitage other than Jesus himself?

    Again I'll leave this for a believer, but quitting practices that kill and abuse children and otherwise destroy families would be a healthy beginning.

    6/ if an evolutionist makes a new discovery like recently dinosaurs were found in the belly of mammals larger than rats obviously having been eaten so changing an established evolutionary belief for 100's of years that always had mammals at a basic developmental stage to dinosaurs, why do you accept this flip-flop if you are an atheist?

    This is not new information (2005) nor a flip flop. It was the first evidence that mammals had developed large enough to consume smaller dinosaurs, and speaks to greater understanding of the particular ecosysytem in that region.

    Evidence is essential to the scientific method but seems in short supply when it comes to establishing the authority of the WTS in 1919 - Reniaa have you anything new to add to the discussion on that - it has developed beyond the point you bailed out and now seems to have been quietly dropped by you?

  • tenyearsafter
    tenyearsafter

    1/ why do you keep Jw's separate from the rest of christianity? when I judge which christian faith I believe in because they are so diverse now I believe you have to use the same bible standard for all but I get the impression you will accept in others what you won't accept in JW's?

    If you use the same standard Reniaa, JW's are just as wanting as any other religion. None are perfect...the difference is that I can't think of any other mainstream Christian denomination that demonizes members that leave their ranks. I have never heard a pastor claim to be God's sole channel.

    2/ which leads me to this question all church leaders consider they have been given the right to lead and the direction their faith goes from the lowliest faith where the local shaman decides the direction of the tribe to the biggest Religions in all the world, their leaders all claim special direction to lead and people either agree or disagree, the Jws are no different. Even non-religious orgs claim special knowledge usually by ....being voted in, conquest, royal hereditory, Power, Money, learning or experience, they make the decisions for the whole group.

    Again, what mainstream church claims special direction or absolute loyalty of members?

    If someone goes to prison for a certain drug aka marijuana usage in some countries it's legal in others it isn't, by what right do the governments or judges have to decide what is legal or not?

    this is the biggest thing I cannot understand with the viewpoint of ex-witnesses they argue that somehow gb are not allowed to rule but accept it in every other aspects of their life's? If you brake the rules at work then you will lose your job would you feel hard done by if you are sacked for doing a sackable offence by your work's standard even if you consider it silly? but you knew before you went into the job it was a sackable offence?

    Even prisoner's families are not required to shun the prisoner...they still have visiting rights!

    3/ When Jesus comes to Judge the bible is very clear he will be judging the conditions of mens hearts towards God and the bible is also very clear what it considers wrongdoings aka fornication, homosexuality, adultery, idolatry, blood, stealing, lying, murdering.

    My church condemns all of the above except blood transfusion...and I don't see in the Bible where it is condemned. (and please don't use the prohibition against eating blood as an argument...transfusions have no nutritional benefit)

    If you no longer believe in Jw's does it mean you can do these things as long as you believe in Jesus?

    Who has argued that? No church teaches you can just claim to beieve in Jesus and do whatever you want.

    4/ Witnesses are not perfect, niether are the gb they have made mistakes in the past and continue to do so but does imperfection make a religion or org invalid?

    No, but JW's claim to be spirit directed from Jehovah...does he make mistakes?...is he imperfect??

    5/ What do you want in a religion you feel is blessed by God's holy spirit, what would be it's fruitage? did any of the bible's God-chosen religions show this fruitage other than Jesus himself?

    How about reflecting Jesus' attributes...and to be identified by the love they show. Was Jesus legalistic in dealing with people?...

    6/ if an evolutionist makes a new discovery like recently dinosaurs were found in the belly of mammals larger than rats obviously having been eaten so changing an established evolutionary belief for 100's of years that always had mammals at a basic developmental stage to dinosaurs, why do you accept this flip-flop if you are an atheist?

    If an evolutionist claimed to be God's channel and directed by God, I wouldn't...if he is just a man giving his interpretation, I could accept his changing his statements.

    Reniaa, we could go back and forth endlessly, but the bottom line is as long as there are claims of divine appointment and continuing direction by God, that claimant will be held to a higher standard.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    1/ why do you keep Jw's separate from the rest of christianity? when I judge which christian faith I believe in because they are so diverse now I believe you have to use the same bible standard for all but I get the impression you will accept in others what you won't accept in JW's?..That is what the WBT$ demands from it`s followers..To be seperate from the rest of Christianity..How come you don`t know that?

    2/ which leads me to this question all church leaders consider they have been given the right to lead and the direction their faith goes from the lowliest faith where the local shaman decides the direction of the tribe to the biggest Religions in all the world, their leaders all claim special direction to lead and people either agree or disagree, the Jws are no different. Even non-religious orgs claim special knowledge usually by ....being voted in, conquest, royal hereditory, Power, Money, learning or experience, they make the decisions for the whole group.

    If someone goes to prison for a certain drug aka marijuana usage in some countries it's legal in others it isn't, by what right do the governments or judges have to decide what is legal or not?..Huh?

    this is the biggest thing I cannot understand with the viewpoint of ex-witnesses they argue that somehow gb are not allowed to rule but accept it in every other aspects of their life's? If you brake the rules at work then you will lose your job would you feel hard done by if you are sacked for doing a sackable offence by your work's standard even if you consider it silly? but you knew before you went into the job it was a sackable offence?..The difference is.....At work you are told everything up front..Before your hired..Screw up and you lose your job..........JW`s don`t know all the rules until they are in!..Screw up and you lose your family and friends..The WBT$ runs on Deciet..Much like you!..LOL!!

    3/ When Jesus comes to Judge the bible is very clear he will be judging the conditions of mens hearts towards God and the bible is also very clear what it considers wrongdoings aka fornication, homosexuality, adultery, idolatry, blood, stealing, lying, murdering...And..When armageddon comes and your are not an Active JW..Providing free labour for the WBT%..Your Dead..Not even Jesus can Save you!..LOL!!

    If you no longer believe in Jw's does it mean you can do these things as long as you believe in Jesus?.. Christians I know who are not JW`s,do not believe murder is right.or stealing..Are you saying people who quit the JW`s and still believe in Jesus now think those things are right?....The unbelievable Nonsense that come from your type writer!!..LOL!!

    4/ Witnesses are not perfect, niether are the gb they have made mistakes in the past and continue to do so but does imperfection make a religion or org invalid?..Being cosistantly wrong does not prove you are Gods only true Religion..It means your probably Nuts!..LOL!!

    5/ What do you want in a religion you feel is blessed by God's holy spirit, what would be it's fruitage? ..The WBT$ bares some pretty rotten fruit did any of the bible's God-chosen religions show this fruitage other than Jesus himself?..What religions did God Choose?..Certainly not the WBT$..The WBT$ chose themselves as Gods organization..And..Put Jesus out of a Job,as Mediator!

    6/ if an evolutionist makes a new discovery like recently dinosaurs were found in the belly of mammals larger than rats obviously having been eaten so changing an established evolutionary belief for 100's of years that always had mammals at a basic developmental stage to dinosaurs, why do you accept this flip-flop if you are an atheist?..At least there is proof of dinosaurs,in the belly of a mammal..The WBT$ provides proof for nothing........Why do you have to be an athiest to believe in evolution?.................................................................Reniaa..Why did you write this post?.....It`s nonsense.....All of it.....If you were in the Army,they would call it a "Brain Fart!"..LOL!!.......................................

    Reniaa

    Laughing Mutley...OUTLAW

  • Mary
    Mary
    Reniaa said: Witnesses are not perfect, niether are the gb they have made mistakes in the past and continue to do so but does imperfection make a religion or org invalid?

    Reniaa, as per usual, you ignore the obvious and begin to ramble off your predictive questions. The main thing that so many of us find disgusting about the Organization is not that they've "made mistakes", but because they enforce all of their "mistakes" onto the rank and file who are supposed to accept these "mistakes" without question. The average Witness is not allowed to "make sure of all things" or even to "carelfully examine the scriptures daily as to where these things are so"----they simply are supposed to blindly accept whatever the Governing Body members say, no matter how ridiculous or pathetic their warped views might be. And if you dare to use your brain and come to a different conclusion than what the Slobbering Body members do, then you're branded as an "apostate", even though they might very well get new and improved light somewhere down the road that validates what you were saying all along.

    Reniaa, why are you even on here? You ignore pointed questions to which you know you have no logical answers, and when backed into a corner, you flee for a while, wait for things to calm down and then once again, begin asking your stupid questions that we've answered a thousand times on here. You cannot and have not been able to defend the Organization rationally and either ignore or fail to grasp the simplest of questions put to you, no matter how often we ask you.

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    Dialogue from a JW board you might find helpful with this thread.

    So if the GB says it bad... then it is bad.
    we do as the GB tell us to.

    If they say flossing is bad, then flossing is bad.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    we do as the GB tell us to.Let us keep in mind that the Bible, which we recognize as the word of God,
    tells us there is one mediator between man and God...... We all know who
    that is...

    We have been imbued w/ conscience - each on us. We are accountable to
    Jehovah how we use our conscience. Jehovah didn't grant the GB to dictate
    our conscience - only to dispense (spiritual) food at the proper time.

    Counsel is dispensed and then free moral agents get to decide what they'll
    do with it (not each other for each other).

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Very good however we train our conscience on training and
    indoctrination from the GB. To the point, we are to do as the GB tell
    us to do. And the publications as of late reminds us of that fact.
    letters to the BOE, reminds us of that fact.

    Remember a GB member spoke in an italian DA and told the audience if
    they were studying in Universities.. to drop out. So now your
    conscience will play out here. If you are a good and spiritual
    Christian you will drop out... if not (fill in the blanks).

    The GB establishes for us, what is good or bad, and what our conduct
    is suppose to be as Christians. I do not have a problem with this. But
    it is what it is, if we don't accept this fact we cease to be Jehovah
    Witnesses and we become apostates.

    Here is an example of the mindset. A sister is going to marry
    a brother. She have to accept the fact, that her husband has the final
    say in everything, absolutely everything, except if a Biblical
    Principle is broken.
    Some sisters don't realize this fact until after they get married. Her
    Husband has oversight on everything she does. When she goes out of the
    house comes, back, who she associates with in the Hall, what color of
    underwear she should use if he is that much of an idiot, and there are
    idiots out there (right sisters?). That is Biblical law.

    I remind sisters of these fact if they are going to get married. You
    would be surprise of the response I get. My final response is....don't
    get married.

    Same is, when you become a witnesses... listen very carefully to those
    two question ask right before baptism :-)
    --

    These are the questions

    On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

    The second is:

    Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi guys I'll answer you all as a whole since you seem to bring up similar points.

    You say Jw's are unique in 'claiming to be God's sole channel' atm among faiths and so are special case scenario.

    Papal infallibility is the dogma in Catholic theology that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error [ 1 ]

    Catholic theologians agree that both Pope Pius IX's 1854 definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and Pope Pius XII's 1950 definition of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary are instances of papal infallibility, a fact which has been confirmed by the Church's magisterium [1]. However, theologians disagree about what other documents qualify.

    here is what you have to do to be saved as per born again christianity says....

    protestants....

    • Eternal security is also conditional: All believers have full assurance of salvation with the condition that they remain in Christ. Salvation is conditioned on faith, therefore perseverance is also conditioned. [ 15 ] Apostasy (turning from Christ) is only committed through a deliberate, willful rejection of Jesus and renouncement of belief. [ 16 ]

    pentacostals...

    Pentecostals believe that in order to receive salvation and enter Heaven one must accept the teachings of Jesus Christ as described in the Bible. This includes being born again or being regenerated and is the fundamental requirement of Pentecostalism

    but as a whole there is a term for it..

    Soteriology

    Soteriology is the study of salvation. Many religions give emphasis to salvation of one form or another and as such have their own soteriologies. Some soteriologies are primarily concerned with relationships to or unity with deity. Others more strongly emphasize the cultivation of knowledge or virtue. Soteriologies also differ in what sort of salvation they promise.

    The concept of universal salvation is widely accepted, even while the doctrines of particular religions claim, to one extent or another, that they are the "one true faith" and that others ("non-believers," "heretics" etc.) receive different treatment from God in the afterlife.

    My research and experience leads me to agree with the above, that most faiths declare salvation within themselves and if they do widen this umbrella, it is concerning specific doctrine like born agains that say you have to have an experience of conversion to being born again etc all these are born from some mans mind.

    Jws are definitely not unique in this respect therefore I do not think you can use this as specific grounds to judge them apart from christianity as especially BAD in this respect.

    Isaac blood is mentioned within the NT whether you like it or not in acts and history shows that early christian would die rather than eat blood sausage but the question is... are Jws right to apply this also to human lifeblood inc transfusions as well as eating blood? but that is for us personally to decide.

    excommunication(disfellowship) is used by many churches not just Jws

    List of former Latter-day Saints

    This is a list of well-known Latter-day Saints who have been excommunicated , or no longer profess to be Latter-day Saints. List of people excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church This List of Excommunications is a list of persons excommunicated officially by the Roman Catholic Church

    Excommunication is a religious censure used to deprive or suspend membership in a religious community. The word literally means putting [someone] out of communion. In some religions, excommunication includes spiritual condemnation of the member or group. Censures and sanctions sometimes follow excommunication; these include banishment, shunning, and shaming, depending on the religion, the offense that caused excommunication, or the rules or norms of the religious community.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Posting to read this page.............OUTLAW

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