Leolaia, thank you for your posts. I have learned a lot from reading your posts during the short time I've been a member.
Snowbird, thank you for this thread. This is a concept I've struggled with since leaving the organization.
Jesus Is Jehovah/Jehovah Is Jesus
by snowbird 328 Replies latest watchtower bible
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snowbird
CHILD, you are welcome.
Willy, I started this thread because I was reflecting on how far off the mark the WT is with its so-called truths.
Can you imagine having this discussion at the KH or in someone's home during a BS?
Sylvia
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cabasilas
I fail to see how any of this matters, though. What what possible difference does it make whether Jesus is Jehovah or not? Isn't it just an intellectual argument? As far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with real life.
I guess one has to decide if there's any reason to believe. I do, but that would be the subject of another thread.
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abbagail
"Jehovah and Jesus are very confused.. That`s why the WBT$ is in charge!!......................OUTLAW"
You made me laugh with that one, Outlaw! Ha!
Even so, you know I don't agree the WT is "in charge" of knowing much of anything, lol. Nor do I believe JESUS/JESUS is corn-fused! ;-)
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I agree with Sylvia, Jesus is the same PERSON as YHWH in the OT.
Prior thread of this subject from early 2007 where a long discussion took place, and I put in my 2-short-cents:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/124384/11.ashx -- if anybody wants to take a look.
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God the Father and God the Holy Spirit remain UN-NAMED throughout scripture.
God the Father and God the Holy Spirit have also ALWAYS remained in the INVISIBLE realm.
It is ONLY GOD THE SON who STEPPED FORWARD out of the INVISIBLE realm to the VISIBLE realm in order to deal with mankind (Coloss 1:15: "He is the image of the INVISIBLE God...").
He/Jesus/YHWH is also THE COMMUNICATOR with mankind FROM THE BEGINNING ( = "THE WORD"!!! ;-) I LOVE this stuff! "IN THE BEGINNING was THE WORD, and The WORD was with God, and the Word WAS GOD" - John 1:1).
HE is the GOD of the BIBLE, THE WORD, the One who...
walked w/Adam & Eve in the Garden,
who spoke to Abraham,
who spoke to Hagar,
who appeared to Moses in the burning bush,
who stood before Joshua as Captain of the Host, etc. etc.
It was always GOD THE SON who stepped forward from the INVISIBLE to the VISIBLE realm to deal with and save Mankind, who became flesh and dwelt among us. It always was JESUS (JEHOVAH) the WHOLE TIME. Praise the Lord!
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It was HE who authored the prophecies CONCERNING HIMSELF throughout all of Scripture. As I said, HE IS "THE WORD."
And He/Jesus/YHWH is also the ONLY ONE of the Godhead who ever has His PERSONAL NAMES REVEALED, YHWH/OT, Jesus/NT.
What His name means is that He would "BECOME" MORE-and-MORE **REVEALED** to Mankind throughout the ages... from THE BEGINNING and all the way to the End of the Age as proclaimed in the last book in the Bible, "THE ***REVELATION*** of JESUS CHRIST".
So God has been CONTINUALLY REVEALING Himself through the ages, and in the end He will be COMPLETELY/TOTALLY ***REVEALED*** to Mankind.
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And this is MY FAVORITE... it is JESUS (=JEHOVAH/YHWH = LORD) whose VERY FEET will STAND on the Mount of Olives in the "DAY OF THE LORD"... (we'll use the NWT since this is a JW forum...)
(NWT) -- Zechariah 14:1,3,4 -- “Look! There is a DAY COMING, BELONGING TO JEHOVAH... And JEHOVAH will certainly go forth and war against those nations as in the day of his warring, in the day of fight. AND HIS FEET WILL ACTUALLY STAND IN THAT DAY UPON THE MOUNTAIN OF THE OLIVE TREES, which is in front of Jerusalem, on the east...
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In another thread sometime in early 2007, Mouthy had said she believed the same, that Jesus is "Jehovah" and that she had a graphic with LOTS of scriptures about it. Her friend emailed me a copy and I still have it, but it is a circular graphic/chart and I can't post photos. ;-/
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FWIW, I only "got" the Trinity in early 2005 and that came before I understood the above. After struggling with the Trinity for a few years I finally thought, for pete's sake, quit struggling and feeling guilty for Not "getting it" like everyone else seems to be able to. Just PRAY and ASK the Lord to SHOW YOU if it is TRUE or NOT! (Duh! So dense sometimes!) Within a few days to a week I was reading a Statement of Faith at a Messianic Jewish congregation website (I used to love to read Stmts of Faith! Collected lots of them. It was fun!)
The one at that site was VERY DETAILED, tons of scriptures, it was fantastic. Especially their entire section re: the Persons of the Trinity or Godhead as is often said. The Holy Spirit section was great, too, but when I came upon their explanation of the Shema in Deut. 6:4, it was SO SIMPLE, but was like HELLO! BINGO! Ding Ding Ding! I GOT IT! To put it briefly, they explained how the Hebrew word for ONE in the Shema was ECHAD which means COMPOSITE!!! So... "The LORD our God is ONE COMPOSITE GOD!" And that was all she wrote! It made PERFECT SENSE. -- (It was long in coming because even when I was a kid in Catholic School, when the nun drew a triangle on the blackboard saying, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, I remember thinking even then, "THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.")
NOT "THREE GODS", as the WT tries to say, with those pics of pagan gods with three heads, etc.
But ONE GOD in THREE PERSONS!
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I always picture them like this:
Get a visual of a giant umbrella that is fully opened.
Write in big giant letters across the front of the umbrella: G-O-D.
Now look who is standing underneath the "Umbrella":
The Father << Remains Unnamed and Invisible to Mankind
The Son >> Stepped out of the INVISIBLE to the VISIBLE in order to COMMUNICATE with and SAVE Mankind and to REVEAL Himself and His Names
The Holy Spirit << Remains Unnamed and Invisible to Mankind
I don't have to "fight it" or struggle against it. I accept it, believe it, and it is FULLY SATISFYING to my mind and heart.
The Lord may reveal it to others in a different way, as He deals with each of us Individually, so whatever would work for you PERSONALLY. Ask Him for the "PERSONAL TOUCH." He's GREAT at that! -
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Leolaia
One of the most interesting examples is Paul's discussion of people defiling the Lord's Supper in 1 Corinthians 10-11. There he warns his readers to not "put the Lord to the test" and "provoke the Lord to jealousy" (10:9, 22) -- these are allusions to Deuteronomy that originally concerned the Lord God (YHWH in the Hebrew) demanding exclusive worship from the Israelites in the wilderness. And he gave specific examples of Israelites punished in the wilderness for putting the Lord to the test, such as those killed by snakes (Numbers 21:6). But when he refers to the Lord punishing the Christians for defiling the Lord's Supper, he makes no distinction between the Lord and Christ. So he says: "Anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have died. But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined" (11:29-32). The Lord here can only be Jesus, as the reference to the "body" of the Lord in a eucharistic context makes clear. The same is true with a statement a verse earlier: "Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord". Again, here the "cup of the Lord" pertains to the "blood of the Lord," which again refers to Jesus Christ -- not the Father. And there is a similar reference to the "cup of the Lord" in the previous chapter: "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. Are we trying to provoke the Lord's jealousy?" (10:21-22). Here the reference to the "cup of the Lord" leads directly to the allusion to Deuteronomy 32:21 and its association with the earlier references to the Lord punishing the Israelites in the wilderness: "We should not test the Lord, as some of them did -- and were killed by snakes. And do not grumble, as some of them did -- and were killed by the destroying angel". The reference to the "Lord's table" is also an OT reference to the "Lord's table" in Malachi 1:6-7, 12, which has the exact same theme in 1 Corinthians 10-11, namely, defiling the bread consecrated to the Lord with idolatry. So Paul's argument here clearly depends on his identification of the Lord whose cup they drink and whose body they eat with the Lord of the OT whom the Israelites tested with their forays into idolatry. There is no distinction between the two -- Paul talks about both in the same breath, the "cup of the Lord" and "the blood of the Lord" with "judged by the Lord" and "putting the Lord to the test" and "provoking the Lord's jealousy".
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leavingwt
Thanks, Leolaia.
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possible-san
Hi, Leolaia.
I respect your learning.
And I appreciate your close investigation.
But I feel that I may have to say to you.
First, you should explain exactly to people that that text which you have quoted from LXX is "translation into English from Greek."
And if people compare in the Greek original, people will understand that the Apostle Paul is not quoted strictly each time.
When he quoted from LXX in many cases, he quoted having put the words in another way, or translating freely (paraphrase).
Therefore, the word of the Old Testament and the word of the New Testament are not necessarily strictly in agreement as you showed.
He quoted the Scriptures freely and applied freely.Moreover, according to my understanding, the Apostle Paul understood that Jesus is "I AM."
Therefore, it is natural that he applies the words about "I AM" (Jehovah) of the Old Testament to Jesus.
But it can be strictly said so in a "symbolic meaning."If you thought literally "Jehovah is Jesus", when Jesus comes to the earth, it means "There is no God in Heaven."
I think that it is an absurd view.
Jehovah's Witnesses will surely make a fool of such views.
And they will make a fool of people who gather to JWD.possible
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abbagail
Hey, wow, sacolton! That's it! Thanks! and a NICE BIG SIZE, too, which is readable. The one I got from Mouthy's friend was small and the print was tiny.
Everybody take a peek at the chart sacolton posted, for a bunch of scripture references on this subject: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_dTSEBZ7tOe0/SKaeSl1fouI/AAAAAAAAARU/-ivAk8BAnwM/s1600-h/CetnarWheel.JPG -
cabasilas
If you thought literally "Jehovah is Jesus", when Jesus comes to the earth, it means "There is no God in Heaven."
I think that it is an absurd view.The traditional Christian response is that God is able to be both in heaven and on earth at the same time. The concepts of "persons" is not to be understood on the human level. Nor are we able to fully understand such ideas of the eternity of God or of his essential being.
JWs like to point out that 1+1+1 does not equal 1, but 3.
However, 1x1x1 does equal 1.
