by Awakened at Gilead 103 Replies latest members adult
I appreciate your recognition of Jesus as a no-name agitator unrecognized outside his circle of followers... I could not have expected more from a Christian on this thread.
Well, A@G, that is not my personal confession, but the way a member of the society of that period that was not initiated into the Christian community and faith would have seen it, at least in the early years.
BTS
A&G,
Why don't we just look him up in the Judean newspapers back then? There's got to be some birth records published back then or birth certificates on file somewhere! Certainly Jesus would have made it into the police record, wouldn't he? I mean, haven't all those records been put on the Internet somewhere?? :)
Therein lies the problem. We can't use our current historical methods to judge another era. Since most records that we recognize from that era are just copies of copies we could cast doubt on almost all "historical" records from then. How many other people from antiquity could we cast doubt upon?
Now, when the Jesus movement started getting the attention of those sources we now have access to (not counting the records of his followers), how many people back then questioned whether or not he had even existed? Is there any debate from that era as to his existence? An argument from silence, to be sure. But, the debate as to whether Jesus even existed is a modern debate.
For those interested in the modern debate about whether Jesus really existed, I'd recommend this book:
the canon of the NT is suspect since it was not completed until hundreds of years after Jesus appearance on the earth and was subject to the decision of the early church.
The "canon" was defined hundreds of years later. The actual writings that were esteemed as "canonical" were written far earlier however.
BTS
Jesus did exist. So does John, Patrick, Benjamin, Carlos, Maria, Josephine, Klaas, Katrien......
Do I need to go on?
Cheers
Borgia
Do not cite the Bible
We also have early non-canonical patristic writings. Clement, Papias, Polycarp, Ignatius. Etc. Some of these were taught by the Apostles themselves. Clement by Peter, Polycarp by John. Ignatius is traditionally said to be the little boy that Jesus used to teach the Apostles a lesson. We also have non-sourced early writings such as the Didache that confirm that the essentials of the Christian faith were in place at a very early date. It is not a long read; a very short catechism:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/richardson/fathers.viii.i.iii.html
BTS
And there are those sources which are non-orthodox which report a different Jesus. As to who reported him more faithfully, that would be the subject of another thread. Nonetheless, the argument back in ancient times was about what Jesus actually taught -- not whether or not he existed.
As to who reported him more faithfully, that would be the subject of another thread.
Please start that topic!
Helen Adams Keller
(June 27, 1880 – June 1, 1968) was an Americanauthor, activist, and lecturer. She was the first deafblind person to graduate from college
A&G.......
If you cut my hands ... break my legs and poke my eyes both literal and figurative .. disqualify all written record.. you win
I do not have the extreme talents of Hellen Keller
Caliber
Please start that topic!
Go ahead. I'm doing more today here than I should be. And I probably won't check back until this week's finals are done.
Problem is...with that subject ("who reported him more faithfully?"), the answers are probably going to be more subjective than objective.
A@G,
Obviously Satan the Devil with his political and religious allies destroyed all non-Biblical evidence of the existance of Jesus!
Do you buy that explanation?
Nope, me neither.
Certainly, it would be understandable to lack external documentation on ordinary men and women. Such as, we wouldn't expect to find external historical proof of the existance of Peter's mother-in-law and a doctor's report of her being miraculously cured. That's way too obscure to expect to find external proof.
However, when you read the gospels, Jesus is no ordinary man. He miraculously healed lepers, cured the sick, expelled demons, raised the dead, miraculously fed thousands, threw moneychangers out of the temple, attracted the attention of the Sanhedrin, the Samaritans, the Greeks, the Romans, the rulers, the military. Jesus himself was reported to have said:
10:26-27) . . .for there is nothing covered over that will not become uncovered, and secret that will not become known. 27 What I tell YOU in the darkness, say in the light; and what YOU hear whispered, preach from the housetops.(Matthew
(Luke
19:40) . . .But in reply he said: "I tell YOU, If these remained silent, the stones would cry out."With his preaching of the uncovering of secrets, illumination, the stones crying out, you would expect that he would have abundant external proof of his historical existance, miracles, and teaching. Certainly, if these are "the Last Days" shouldn't there be abundant evidence of the truth of the Bible. Instead, it all requires "faith". Some are able to look at the Bible and put faith in what is there. For those that truly follow the upbuilding message of the gospel, they can have a good life and live happily and peacefully with a hope. However, others see that lack of historicity, the passage of 2000 years since his appearance, and the chaos in Christendom has left nothing in which to put faith or build hope.
As JWs, we were simply taught that we had the truth and there was no reason to question it. The fact that "this generation" that was alive in 1914 would not pass away before the big A, proved everything... everything. Now, it proves that it's time to reexamine everything. Certainly, it's all a lot easier to believe when you don't actually examine what's being taught.
B the X
