This one's for you, Outlaw !
Can you see Jesus?
Is it a miracle? Or is it Photoshop?
Okay Lance, this is the LAST hijack, and I mean that !
B the X
Did Jesus Exist? What historical proof is there?
by Awakened at Gilead 103 Replies latest members adult
-
-
OUTLAW
BTXB..That`s just Twisted..LOL!!...............We know where people are going to start looking for Jesus now..I`m locking the Dog up for his own safety..................
...OUTLAW -
-
peacefulpete
Well perhaps the question of historicity was not relevant to a mystery cult. Much about Christianity's origins bears upon this issue. The earliest Christ cultists may very well have adored a character more in the style of Dionysus and Mithra than a Jewish reformer. Noone seriously debated whether these saviors lived either. But even if we prefer a Jewish origin of Christianity a person has to recognise the popularity of midrash styled legends surrounding all the major OT chracaters with little concern about historicity. Some of these legends even made it into the NT. Further, we have extremely diverse opinions about Jesus from the late first and second centuries. The earliest christian leaders themselevs had no consensus about even basic details like how old Jesus was or who killed him or even if he was killed. This fact alone suggests earlier Christians worried very little about historicity. It seems to me that its only after Christainity began to form some sort of orthodoxy that they began to insist their savior was a historical person locatable in time. The checkered story of the evolving NT Gospels seems to suggest this development as well.
-
golf2
Assuming historical proof was provided, what difference would it make to you? How about faith, do we toss that out the window? Do you 'really" have faith in yourself?
-
Midget-Sasquatch
Its interesting though to consider that gap between Jesus and James. Why would later Christian texts link them as blood brothers? Only to combat the doceticists and to historicize the Orthodoxy's otherwise pure mythology?
An interesting read (although somewhat convoluted in its argumentation) is a book by Robert Eisenman on James the Just. The main premise is that James lead a group with himself acting as an alternative priestly class. So yes, more Jewish than Christian, and possibly having strong affinities with the Essenes (if not one outright). If in fact James was originally an Essene then it could account for many of the strong similarities between early christianity and the essenes.
Just to go with that, its not implausible to have the historical Jesus being a real life blood brother of this James. But Jesus very early on ran afoul of the establishment like so many other anti-herodians. The movement only started to get real notice with James at its helm for many years. Then Paul with his own "revelations" brought a whole different Jesus to the table. Ergo the jabs at "Simon" in the Pseudo-Clementines.
-
lnunya
BTS: That is a great response...makes good sense... I appreciate your recognition of Jesus as a no-name agitator unrecognized outside his circle of followers... I could not have expected more from a Christian on this thread... Thanks
He's still unrecognized outside his own circle of followers. People can battle wits until the end of time over his existance/non-existance, teachings, miracles or what have you, and it won't make one bit of difference. Some people like to argue simply for arguments sake. They're not going to be convinced by any train of thought, whether logical or not. Never mind historical or contemporary testimony. Proof will never be had by a battle of wits, simply because you're seeking it from the wrong people.
The proof you seek is given today in the same way every single true believer has ever received it. Directly from Christ Jesus himself. All that non-believers will ever get from Christ's people is a testimony.......an accounting that is subjective by nature, and therefore unprovable. The change in their lives, however, does offer some evidence of the miraculous conversion of those that have truly been touched by the hand of God. The original question was "did Jesus exist?" I say unequivocally yes. And not only did he exist historically, he still exists and he still reveals himself to his own. Can I 'prove' it? No. But proving it isn't my job. I can give people my testimony. What they do with it is their business.
-
MissingLink
So, what you're saying is that Jesus hates the rest of us (that he hasn't bothered to expose himself to). I'd believe if I got a personal visit, but I'm condemned because... I don't know... He's just too busy?
-
peacefulpete
Generally all indefeasible ideas resort to arguments from personal experience. "I know I saw aliens!" "I was healed!" "I've seen angels!" etc. The sad reality is that whatever their experience was, they are not open to explanations that better fit the facts because of have deep seated prejudices that interpret the experience.
-
slimboyfat
Good to see Leolaia, Narkissos and peaceful pete altogether in a new thread. Maybe LittleToe might make an appearance too.
I think liberal Christians can of course live with the idea that the gospels are not accurate in all its details. That is however a far cry from saying the Christian faith can withstand acceptance that Jesus is mostly or completely a myth. There are core historical facts on which Christianity, if it is to have any meaning, cannot negotiate.
Christianity is a historical faith. It promises a better future on the basis of certain events having taken place in the past. Christianity can survive mistakes in the gospels about the chronology of Jesus ministry and events leading up to his death, or differences about what sayings can be accurately attributed to him. Christianity cannot however cohere as a faith or a philosophy if Jesus was not a man who was sent by God to die for mankind. Those core details cannot be accepted as fiction and Christianity make sense.
Christianity promises redemption for mankind on the basis of who Jesus was and on what he did in giving his life for mankind. If he was not sent by God and did not give his life then there is no basis for the Christian message.
...OUTLAW