Did Jesus Exist? What historical proof is there?

by Awakened at Gilead 103 Replies latest members adult

• 

  besty

  Not sure if I can add anything to the argument here but since when has that stopped any half-assed JWD'er? :-)

  Do we exist in a real world or are we all instantaneous virtual reality constructs? Probably the former to a reasonable degree of certainty.

  Are there other life forms in the known/unknown universes? Probably but we can't prove/disprove this, although possibly suggest a probability

  Does gravity exist? Very probably, but we can't prove it in a mathematical proof.

  Does Jesus/God exist in the Biblical interpretation? (the creators of all things, walking on water and other assorted miracles) - outrageous claims require outrageous evidence and for me the Bible majors on claims and minors on evidence. God the Scientist should have made it the other way round, so for me at least, the probability is they do not exist in the form as claimed in the Bible.

  Whether some bloke called Brian Jesus was wandering around chatting about heaven and stuff is a milestone and I suspect not the ultimate question troubling our dearest Lance.
• 

  Farkel

  AG,
  
  I've read quite a bit about whether a historical Jesus existed or not, and since you want proof, I will offer all the proof I've accumulated for his actual existence:
  
  0
  
  But even more important than whether Jesus existed or not, is proof to answer whether Jesus was a) the Son of God, conceived by holy spirit from a virgin, b) mankind's redeemer from sin, c) an avatar that could raise from the dead someone who had been dead for days, and d) was resurrected into heaven as a spirit being.
  
  Even if it could be proven that Jesus existed, the other sticky details about what he actually did or didn't do still remain in the air for skeptics with half-a-brain still left.
  
  The only "proof" that Jesus did these things is offered by his own true believers, which, as you say, is no proof at all.
  
  Farkel
• 

  Awakened at Gilead

  It's posts like these that have prompted me to start this thread:

  Why do the God haters always have to resort to nasty posts when a Christian makes a post that these God haters should stay out of? They think they have the right to condemn everything but cry like a baby if someone opposes what they believe.
  
  Oh....I see.................."You will be hated by all because of My name..............Mark 13:13
  
  I'd rather be hated by them than be one of them.

  "Born Again" (see John 3:1-8) is something we all must be according to Christ. Matthew 6:20 helps us to begin on that journey.

  What is left to offer a person, that turns away from the Gospel of the Grace of God, and who would rather approach God with her own works/righteousness?

  What gift can we offer to someone that thinks that the WT is God's gift to the world, in the place of His Son?

  What gift can we offer a JW that would pass on His body and blood at the memorial?

  What gift can we offer someone that turns down the comfort of knowing all the work is done for salvation?

  What gift can we offer someone that turns down the peace between God and man?

  What gift can we offer greater than Jesus?

  I did not mention the names of these posters, as I am not trying to pick a fight. But, posts like these insist that Jesus is the only way to salvation, without recognizing the weak basis for a belief in either a historical Jesus, or a Son of God-Jesus. I feel compelled to ask these to examine their beliefs, and why they feel so strongly about them that they can alienate those who do not believe.

  I am not asking these to disbelieve, but rather look at why we don't believe, and respect our viewpoint. Just as we say about JWs, if Christians have the truth, it should stand up to scrutiny. And we should not judge those who disagree with us, as that is going back to the arrongance of JWism.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Please cite historical sources. Do not cite the Bible

  Lets have a foot race. Here are the rules: I have to break your legs first.

  BTS
• 

  Awakened at Gilead

  Haha, BTS.

  As I explained to Snowbie, we already know what the Bible says, we were "Bible scholars" as JWs, weren't we? This is not a forum of persons ignorant of the Bible.

  But what some posters may not be aware of is that there is little historical proof for Jesus outside the Bible. This does not mean that he did not exist, but rather that most of the proof for Jesus was written by anonymous followers at least several decades after his death. There may be arguments for and against the historical value of these documents, although many documents that present a different view of the ancient Jesus were destroyed as heretical, although several were preserved at Nag Hammadi.

  If you feel that restricting the debate to non-Biblical sources cripples your argument, then you have seen my point. "Touche!"

  Breaking a leg is not always bad, is it? Before you go out to your next performance, I will tell you... "Break a leg!"
• 

  BurnTheShips

  This does not mean that he did not exist, but rather that most of the proof for Jesus was written by anonymous followers at least several decades after his death.

  Indeed, as you note, there is a great deal of information that was written about Jesus only a short period after his death, within the same century. This is historically proximate to the actual events in the accounts. Some of the writers claimed to be eyewitnesses, others, such as Luke, claimed to have compiled their accounts from such eyewitnesses. Also, the writers were not anonymous, but were identified as the authors of these works from the earliest times. Many of the authors are reputed to have been executed for holding to the very things they set down on paper.

  BTS
• 

  badboy

  An intruining argument in favour of historicity occurs to one.

  Hescyulius(spelling?) writing around AD200(?) mentions descendants of st peter and matthew.
• 

  caliber

  E ven though early secular reports on Jesus may have been rare, there are still a few surviving references to Him. Not too surprisingly, the earliest non-Christian reports were made by the Jews. Flavius Josephus, who lived until 98 A.D., was a romanized Jewish historian. He wrote books on Jewish history for the Roman people. In his book, Jewish Antiquities, he made references to Jesus. In one reference he wrote:
  
  About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders. [Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2]

  ...it was their habit on a fixed day to assemble before daylight and recite by turns a form of words to Christ as a god; and that they bound themselves with an oath, not for any crime, but not to commit theft or robbery, or adultery, not to break their word, and not to deny a deposit when demanded. After this was done, their custom was to depart, and meet again to take food... [Pliny, Epistle 97]

  The author of the denomination was Christ[us] who had been executed in Tiberius time by the Procurator Pontius Pilate. The pestilent superstition, checked for a while, burst out again, not only throughout Judea...but throughout the city of Rome also... [Tacitus, Annals, XV 44]
  
  N ow these ancient secular writings do not prove that Jesus is the Son of God or even the Christ, but that is not the goal of this tract. These reports show that a virtuous person named Jesus did live in the early first century A.D. and authored a religious movement (which still exists today). This Person was at least called Christ - the Messiah. Christians in the first century also appeared to consider Him God. Finally these writings support other facts found in the Bible surrounding His life. The claim that Jesus never existed and His life is a myth compromises the reliability of ancient history http://users.binary.net/polycarp/jesus.html
• 

  BurnTheShips

  The majority and mainstream of opinion of historians and biblical scholars is that Jesus the man existed. The four canonical gospels available were all written within 50-60 years of the lifetime of Jesus by individuals that either knew him or knew those that did. Early extracanonical writings from the late 1st and early 2nd century give further attestation of a large group of followers that would have known eyewitnesses of the man's life. Josephus may have been writing about early Christians rather than a historical Jesus, but he was writing about an already sizable community that existed within decades of the death of the founder. There is also mention in other non-Christian sources of a group of people that followed a Christus or Chrestus, not all of it written with a favorable eye towards that group.

  That is as solid an evidence as we are going to get with any ancient figure, and the mention of lack of reference in other writings of the period is an argument from silence. This is a bad place to start building a case against the existence of a figure that outside his small group of followers was an insignificant figure; a no-name agitator that was unceremoniously executed.

  BTS
• 

  Awakened at Gilead

  Caliber, see my post above: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/15/168684/3124306/post.ashx#3124306

  BTS: That is a great response...makes good sense... I appreciate your recognition of Jesus as a no-name agitator unrecognized outside his circle of followers... I could not have expected more from a Christian on this thread... Thanks