Did Jesus Exist? What historical proof is there? (page 10)

Narkissos

I would say the core of the story is that Jesus was a man but was also the Son of God and that he gave his life for mankind.

Please note that at least (the underlined) half of this "core" falls out of the field of "history" into that of theology, by definition (btw, the "for mankind" part would not be that easy to demonstrate on purely exegetical grounds).

Ah I thought you elided the general point that nearly everyone accepts some parts of the gospels are embellished for the far grander claim that it would not matter if most or all of it were in fact historically inaccurate. It is one thing for many liberal believers to concede that much of the gospels is myth; it would be quite another for them to abandon the basic story about Jesus as the saviour sent by God to give his life altogether.

As far as liberals are concerned, I really don't think so: theological liberalism, from the 19th-century onward, has been more than keen on discarding the providential and redemptive aspect of Jesus' death, in order to retain Jesus as a moralist, making his death a mere socio-political consequence of his preaching (à la Socrates), devoid of any supranatural efficiency.

Anyway, in my last post I only intended to clarify my initial statement, which you apparently misinterpreted (you can read it again on the previous page): namely that Christianity spiritually feeds on all its source texts, whatever their connection to history. The texts which "nearly everyone" recognise as fictions are not dropped out of the canon, nor out of the church services, inasmuch as they keep on playing their religious role. From this perspective the rest of the debate is quantitative: how much is historical? The diehard fundies would say 100 %, the mythicists 0 %, the Jesus Seminar 17 %... pick your figure, but the most important question is actually qualitative: how relevant to Christianity are the x % retained? More than one century ago Albert Schweitzer came out with the embarrassing conclusion that the historical Jesus (whom he believed had existed) would be a total stranger to the modern Christian faith. Should the historical quest end up with such a character, Christianity would have no choice but "kill him again" to return to its foundational texts...

Narkissos

it bothers me that all those Christians will get to heaven and Jesus won't be there....

Well he may be there if they succeeded in making him up in the process

(You are the body of Christ...)

Homerovah the Almighty

Yes he did, he wasn't always the Son of God though, he was a carpenter that had an unfortunate accident one day when he was building

a condo in Jerusalem, he was helping out some other carpenters to hoist a large wooden beam up and it slipped and landed on his head,

he was knocked out unconscious for awhile but eventually regained consciousness , one of the other workers asked him how he felt when he finally awoke

he said he was fine but wanted to tell everyone there that he was the Son of God, .... they in return said sure you are Jesus sure you are.

And the rest is history

AllTimeJeff

See, I stay away from JWD for a few months, and look at this. Honestly, I couldn't have argued this a few months ago, but I think I have an answer that I have come to.

Read. Educate yourself.

A@G, you have asked a question that I wrestled with. The fact is, the more you study the actual history, you can get a glimpse of someone who evolved into Jesus. Whether the man existed as is portrayed by traditional Christendom is seconday to the fact that someone like Jesus started a multiheaded movement that turned into what we know now as Christianity, with all its traditions and holy books.

One thing I have learned and accepted is that you can use the bible as a literary and historical source, if you are willing to read it with a dispassionate eye. The fact that the bible is so known and distributed argues for a person like Jesus existing. There is a lot to be understood, as long as the bible is read correctly. (i.e. not with a superstitious, salvation oriented point of view)

That doesn't mean we should worship him, of course. Neither should we discount the historocity that is attached to the legend, if you will.

What we are witnessing with this debate in our time has been going on since Jesus allegedly walked the earth. How many Christian sects came out of the 2nd-4th centuries, each with their own takes and own holy books on the acts of Jesus? Isn't that what is going on now? A debate on who Jesus was?

I appreciated Narkissos comment here

As far as liberals are concerned, I really don't think so: theological liberalism, from the 19th-century onward, has been more than keen on discarding the providential and redemptive aspect of Jesus' death, in order to retain Jesus as a moralist, making his death a mere socio-political consequence of his preaching ( à la Socrates), devoid of any supranatural efficiency.
Anyway, in my last post I only intended to clarify my initial statement, which you apparently misinterpreted (you can read it again on the previous page): namely that Christianity spiritually feeds on all its source texts, whatever their connection to history. The texts which "nearly everyone" recognise as fictions are not dropped out of the canon, nor out of the church services, inasmuch as they keep on playing their religious role. From this perspective the rest of the debate is quantitative: how much is historical? The diehard fundies would say 100 %, the mythicists 0 %, the Jesus Seminar 17 %... pick your figure, but the most important question is actually qualitative: how relevant to Christianity are the x % retained? More than one century ago Albert Schweitzer came out with the embarrassing conclusion that the historical Jesus (whom he believed had existed) would be a total stranger to the modern Christian faith. Should the historical quest end up with such a character, Christianity would have no choice but "kill him again" to return to its foundational texts...

For those who are interested, there is much to learn, I have only scratched the surface myself and realize I don't know a lot from a scholarly point of view. But I think it good to applaud the efforts of those who recognize that the modern Christianity we have today continues to evolve more into a following of Jesus as a moralist, as opposed to a god to worship.

Did Jesus exist? Probably. The historical proof? We are still talking about him.

jaguarbass

Let me get this straight.

Jesus is God.

He knows everything, he'ss omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent.

He knew us before we were born,

Some of us he made for honor and some for dishonor aka George Bush, Adolf Hitler, Ted Bundy.

So he decided to kill himself so he could ressurect himself

To pay for our sins to himself, which he orchestrated because he knew us before we were born and what we were goning to do.

And he put us in a sinful world born of sinful parents who he knew would sin from the get go.

Thats what omniscient means.

I think Jesus is running the Federal reserve lending us our money to pay for our government with interest.

I bet they are both Jews.

Time for a wake up call. About God and the Government. And who is running God and the Government.

gymbob

There you go Jag...Jesus was Adolf Hitler!........uh, right?! Or was Adolf, Jesus? (?)

What I mean is....If Jesus was who people say he was, WHY IS IT NOT FREAKING CLEAR TO US?????? That's the unanswered question..why is it sooo unclear??? Does God have a learning dis-a bil-a-tee? Why is this a question that needs to be debated, if Jesus was God?? Gymbob.

Word

Awakened at Gilead:
After rejecting the WTS, I have also rejected belief in Jesus because I do no see any proof that he even existed. Shouldn't we put the belief in Jesus through the same historical wringer that we put the WTS through?
Why do YOU believe in Jesus?
Rules of this debate:
Please cite historical sources. Do not cite the Bible, as that would be like saying "I believe in the FDS because the WatchTower tells me to" = "I believe in Jesus because the Bible says so"
My take? I have not found any sources outside the Bible that conclusively prove that Jesus existed.

? ? ?

There are several,

The tomb of Jesus is still in Jerusalem. Simon Peter's house( Jesus' home at the time ) is still in Capernaum. Jesus existed as did Caiphas, Pilate and Herod to !

Sorry, but don't go back to WTSThink things over !

Did Jesus Exist? What historical proof is there?

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