by reniaa 407 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
But for some of us Reniaa; we DO NOT believe in the bible/scripture/s.
Then there are those that do; which I feel you may be directing your question/query.
Then there are those of us that understand the 'true' meaning or origins of many so-called Christain holidays or celebrations: pagan.
We know this.
The hours tick by; the days go by; the weeks, and yes, even years.
We'll be here - lookin' at your cute emoticon....even as your beautiful hair greys.
hi lovelil
I'll addressed some points on christmas on a post above but to answer you a little more personally, we can only judge by experience and here are a few of mine.... As an english girl at school with no other religious groups I was victimised over my lack of christmas usually because i didn't have an expensive new toy to brag over, the child with (insert latest fad toy here) was suddenly the most popular but if others experiences are different and this comparing of christmas gifts, the poorer kids being ridiculed wasn't one you remember then so be it :
I've always thought the lights were pretty and to this day point them out to my kids as pretty things to look at, Although I did have 2 waring neighbours I lived in the middle and each year they had to outdo each other in displays lol there are only so many santa's you can fit on a roof, I was an annoyance to them both as my unlit house in the middle was not something they approved of.
Can you please show me and Mary and the others who have asked you again and again, where exactly the Bible forbids the observance of Christmas.
can you show me were it says we should practise it? If you have been an ex JW you'll know the info on why they don't as much I do, so I will ask you one question, Do you think jesus would approve of us celebrating christmas?
You tell me christmas is just a fluffy bunny of a feast day okay (I myself have parties and family gatherings all year round, children are happy with cake and games meaning isn't a big issue for them unless others make it so)....but why is Christmas what people always point out as something wrong not to do and JW's always in a position of defence over not doing it. It's October and the shops had christmas stuff up since september, whatever christmas started as and even in christianity it was just one of many random feast days brought about by catholism in the 4th century unlike the others that faded that even the catholics don't recognise them all, it struck cord and has become the foremost and in my opinion a thing of worship now. all hallows 'eve feast days (halloween) and easter feast days are still recognised but not with as much fervour as christmas but they have something in common with christmas the pagan roots are still uppermost in their observance and in fact overtaken the christian labels stuck on them, lol without googling it can you tell me what christian thing halloween is supposed to represent?
I will admit to were I disagree with witnesses openly but on this i'm in complete agreement with them. The bibles lack of mention is enough for me, for something with the level of importance christmas has I would expect specific biblical mention not obscure scriptures more about sabbath that is the best offering on this thread so far
OUTLAW.....angels rejoicing at jesus actual birth is reaching a bit to say that sanctions a yearly observance at the wrong time with all the paraphanalia that comes with it. lol 5th time i'm taken up on christmas and i'm just left wondering why the bible didn't just give a date. Do you realise that if it did it would be a completely different festival to what it is now? theres a good chance christmas would be still around but with a different label and just as important but no references to jesus.
The jews have their festivals etc becoming christians didn't mean we just replace one set with our own but that we don't need that sort of stuff anymore.
arhhhhhhhh no more on Christmas thats your lot from me!
You notice how Renaiia doesn't respond much to most of you ? It's because she wants and needs attention , and just wants to stir $hit, er, the pot up. Personally, I think she enjoys wasting most of your time. Peace out, Mr. Flipper
hi flipper lol not ignoring people i just have limited time to reply and do the best i can to address at least one post from each person, as for my stirring a pot i guess well it's a fair point but hey makes a nice change from endless politics threads ^^
hi mr majestic I got to you :) again
What also would be wrong with someone playing the slot machines if the bible isn’t true…..??
And what would be wrong with someone voting if the bible isn’t true…??? Would it not be in his best interests if there was no truth in the bible….???
Looking forward to your reply, especially on the Christmas scenario.......
The principle on gambling seems to be an established christian one not unique to just witnesses drawn from love of money, putting faith in chance.
Voting is a more difficult one from my research it is unique to witnesses, but I personally feel the principles involved are sound, as with in not putting faith in the salvation coming from men and being responsible for the actions of a government if you vote them in and they choose to goto war etc
lol I refer to my christmas point above for your consideration :)
Hi Reniaa,
Thank you for your efforts to answer the questions that I posed to you. I was sorry and a little bit disappointed that you couldn’t answer them honestly and directly, and I would say that your last attempt was a little incoherent to the specifics of the simple but direct questions I asked….
As you seem to be finding it a little bit of a struggle I thought that I would take the liberty to answer those questions for you:-
If the bible is not true, there is absolutely nothing wrong with indulging in Christmas, being that it would be just an ancient religious custom that has no real meaning at all these days….
If the bible isn’t true then there would be nothing wrong with someone playing a slot machine, so long as he didn’t overindulge…..
And if the bible isn’t true, then it would be a wise choice to vote, to try to improve the welfare of the community that you live in….
Like I have said, I am sorry that you couldn’t be just a tad more honest in your replies, but self-dishonesty seems to be par for the course for believing JW’s, as you seem to be. So as this seems to be the case I see that trying to appeal to an open mind is futile. But thank you for your best efforts. It has been quite enlightening….
Just to say, your confusion on matters seems to be that you are still very much stuck in the indoctrination of the JW’s. The only way that you are going to manage to get beyond that locked mindset is to pull back from the constant indoctrination. This break will give your mind a chance to open other avenues of reasoning, and you might be better able to see a more rounded out perspective and go beyond the JW reasoning you very evidently are trapped in. This will then help you see more accurately that people leaving the organisation, and also those who loose belief in the bible, do so for valid reasons, and not for the want of attaining lower moral values as your JW mindset reasoning seems to wish to believe in. Your belief system seems to be inhibiting your ability to be open minded and reasonable and most importantly honest.
Good luck with your transition to open mindedness….. It really is nothing to fear I promise…..
have sex, celebrate christmas, gamble, embrace politics
None of these things are against the Bible.
Sex - fine if married, and as in cases like Solomon, it is acceptable to have sex with over 1000 women
Christmas - Celebrating the Birth of Jesus is an honor, and until the cult changes of Rutherford the Watchtower recommended Christmas
Gambling - The Bible discusses gambling, such as castling lots over Jesus clothes, but never says it is wrong. If such a common practice was wrong then the Bible would specify this. Obviously gambling beyond ones means is not advisable, but then excess in anything is bad.
Politics - Being involved in Government is not wrong. The Bible provides many examples of people involved in politics, such as Daniel, Mordecai, Esther and Joseph.
So in otherwords, it is the WTS that goes beyond what is in the Bible by creating Pharisaical rules by which to manipulate it members.
There is nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas the JWs have made a big deal out of its pagan origins, so what if it has pagan origins given that it does not have a pagan spirit and it's all about Jesus not Saturn, in fact nobody knows or cares about these origins unless the dubs come to inform.
So it is legitimate, it strengthens the Christian faith what's wrong with giving presents or re-enacting the birth of Jesus in a manger or listening to all those beautiful christmas songs? Saturn was ousted and has nothing to do with it, a trophy taken by the christians after defeating the pagans who had earlier tortured and killed hundreds of thousands of them in a futile attempt to destroy Christianity.
As for gambling and sexual free wheeling they are obviously unwise but then think about this, does the fabulously wealthy WTS do anything to help its members apart from giving advise and critisising, do they fulfill their Biblical obligations towards their followers?
Both: I do not believe in the JW doctrine or any other doctrine/religion/trival out there. I do not believe in the god of the bible - because there is so much ""behind the scene"" stuff(when you go into it) How was the bible put together? Who put the bible together? Why did they choose certain scrolls and leave out others?
The god of the bible is shown to be this man god with a big white beard and a boom voice, at times wrathful at times loving.
I believe in me and god within me "Hamsa" - meaning, I am that.. I believe in that which is and which not. It's difficult to put a label to what I believe now, to do so would mean I'd leave something out.
I also do not believe in the bible. Like LouBelle said there is to many things wrong with it to be the word of god, I will not go into the details but you can get all the information you need from the Internet and other sources.
It is not easy to accept that maybe you have it wrong, it took me a while to accept the information I discovered. The power the WT has on people is strong but if you get the right information and help you can release yourself from their mental prison.
I find that I am a better person since I "lost my faith" and I am a lot happier. I do not fear life as much any more. I just celebrated my 11 wedding anniversary this weekend and I don't have the urge to sleep around just because I don't believe in the bible. I don't do drugs or anything else that is self destructive. I hope that one day superstitions like religion will just die out because I believe humanity needs to let go of this to evolve.
Here is something for you to ponder further Renaia--
1. You mentioned earlier that if Christmas was so important then God would have mentioned it in the bible.
2 You also mentioned that Christmas was a Catholic inspired holiday.
Well if you look at it that way, then it would naturally follow that the name "Jehovah" is a Catholic invention and that if then name of Jehovah is so important for his sovreignty, then why did God not see to it that his name was in the bible? The original pronunciation was lost in time and the name of Jehovah was invented by a Catholic Monk.
You see where I am getting at?
hi razorblade unfortunately I already have the grey hairs :)
Then there are those of us that understand the 'true' meaning or origins of many so-called Christain holidays or celebrations: pagan.
We know this.
The hours tick by; the days go by; the weeks, and yes, even years.
Your right I've focussed to much on people who are still biblical, from your words its clear as someone outside of religious belief you find christian belief less believable for labeling pagan holidays as christian instead etc? do christian realise that they are stumbling people in this way? When I look holidays now over recent years and find they are slipping away from any connection with christianity and being reclaimed as pagan, and I think you see it the same way as I do razor as pagan festivals that christians fool themselves over.
