What do you think Jesus meant...

by Newborn 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • abbagail

    LOL on that last one by Witness007.


    All prophecy applies to Israel and God's "covenant" with her.

    The verses re: 'endure to the end' -- as was mentioned by someone -- were spoken by Jesus to ISRAEL believers PRE-crucifixion. (Ditto for the similar verse mentioned in Revelation). All "end time" PROPHETIC verses apply to Israel, including Revelation, all of which will take place during the 7-year Tribulation at which time those who BECOME believers DURING the Trib WILL have to "endure" for 7 years, 2,520 days.

    Jesus was clearly speaking of the End of the Age in Matthew 24.


    It was God's purpose for ISRAEL to evangelize the world, and be a "light unto the Gentiles."

    They -- as a NATION -- rejected that offer and their Messiah.

    Since Israel rejected their Messiah and God's offer for them to evangelize the world, they forfeited their opportunity to have their KINGDOM in that time-frame. The "END of the AGE" would NOT come in their lifetime.


    God had a "sacred secret hidden in Him from the foundation of the world" which He NEVER mentioned to Israel, and that's what He unfolds next...


    ---- OK, NOW CONTINUE ----

    So then, a TRANSITION takes place at God's direction -- see the Book of Acts -- from salvation being based on believing that Jesus was the Son of God (PRE-crucifixion/Israel Only/Matthew-Mark-Luke-John) to salvation being based on believing that Christ DIED for our sins, was BURIED, and ROSE from the dead on the 3rd day (POST-crucifixion salvation message now being taken to the Gentiles via Paul -- plus any Jews who would believe).

    (Jesus never preached a salvation message re: his death/burial/resurrection to Israel because He had not died yet! His message of salvation involved the Jews believing that He was the SON OF GOD.)

    Now there is a SHIFT, a big one. The offer to share the Gospel -- the Gospel of GRACE ("faith alone") and the "ministry of reconciliation" with the world (vs. the Gospel of the Kingdom and "works") was now given to the GENTILE believers. Now THEY are the ones to share Salvation by Grace with the JEWS (and w/other unbelieving Gentiles).


    In the Kingdom economy, it was mostly ISRAELITE believers with a FEW proselytes/Gentile believers.
    In the GRACE/Chuch Age economy, it is mostly GENTILE believers with a FEW Jewish believers.


    But this current Grace Age is ONLY until "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." When that occurs, the "church age/Grace age" believers (Gentiles and any believing Jews) will be taken out of the way ("caught up to meet the Lord in the air") and at that time God will again focus His FULL attention on ISRAEL as a mostly-unbelieving NATION, for the final 7 years of this "age."

    He will again begin to re-graft the "natural branches" back into the Olive tree.

    During those 7 years it will be mainly Jews who will do all the evangelizing of the world via the KINGDOM GOSPEL AGAIN (the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses in Rev.)

    And during those 7 years of the Trib, anyone who comes to faith during that time WILL have to ENDURE to the END... so hang on, count the days, 1,260 and 1,260. And "happy are those who endure to the 1,335th day" (the extra 75 days is the time between the Fall Feasts of Trumpets/Atonement/Tabernacles to the Feast of Lights when Jesus will again enter the literal Temple that will be built in Israel, and cleanse it. He is the Light of the World so he comes to the Temple on the Feast of Lights (though He will have come back before that for Armageddon, so you can endure the 7 years, but "extra happy" will those Tribulation-saints be if they endure all the way to the 1335th day, as described).

    ALL of these things have to do with ISRAEL AS A NATION. It is ALL the language of the OT and the Gospels which were all PRE-crucifixion before there ever was a GENTILE church-age. And Revelation is the "wrapping up" of all things concerning ISRAEL. Check the language. It really is all OT language. Compare it to Paul and the GRACE Gospel (received POST-crucifixion from the RISEN Christ).

    Of course the unbelieving Gentile Nations will be involved in the Trib as well, but God's FOCUS will be on ISRAEL. She rejected her Messiah so will still have to go thru the Tribulation. But before it is over, she will be crying, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD."

    And then He will come and save her.


    It's awesome. Fascinating. Divide the Word aright, and it's not so hard to figure out:

    PRE-crucifixion vs. POST-crucifixion.

    Kingdom Gospel (OT & 4-Gospels) vs. Grace Gospel (Paul).

    "Works" vs. "Faith Alone."



    Israel-As-A-Nation got 1st choice. Defaulted.

    Church got 2nd dibs for the job. Accepted it/Believed it.


    Church (Body of Christ/Grace age believers -- mostly Gentiles but also some Jews) get the heavenly reward.

    Israel will get her earthly Kingdom reward --after being "purified/tried/tested" through the Trib through which she must "endure to the end."

    And I may be repeating myself, but any Gentiles who come to faith DURING the Trib will also have to "endure to the end" of the 7-year Trib.


    Church age Grace believers also have to endure trials in life, sufferings, all the normal stuff, but our Salvation is NOT BASED ON "ENDURANCE" because the Grace Gospel as preached by Paul (received directly from the POST-crucifixion RISEN Lord) is that we BELIEVE ("Faith Alone") that Christ DIED, was BURIED, and ROSE on the 3rd day. That is what WE must believe in order to be saved, and our salvation CANNOT BE LOST. Once you believe, you are instantly "sealed for the day of redemption." (that means REDEMPTION of our corruptible bodies, not our soul/spirit which was sealed/saved on the day of our believing).

    However, you CAN lose "rewards" for ever how you lived your life AFTER becoming a believer. You will still be saved with the heavenly calling but at the Bema (Judgment) Seat of Christ, you may not receive any rewards. The Bema Seat of Christ does NOT concern whether we are saved or not -- as we were permanently saved upon believing -- but it DOES require we give an accounting for how we lived after coming to faith in Christ. If we committed gross sin, backslid, etc., we WILL lose rewards.


    This is the Christian's "assignment" for this day and age, should he choose to accept it...

    18 Now all things [are] of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore [you] on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. - 2nd Cor. 5


    Check it out. It's a truly BLESSED HOPE!

    If anybody wants scripture backup -- too lazy and tired, too old to look them all up now -- just zap me a PM.

  • myelaine

    dear gregor...

    to say that there was no christian "faith" at the time that the gospel was written is not true...some "Christ/Messiah" believers wrote...

    as the chief cornerstone (matthew 21:42...psalm 118:22-23...isaiah 28:16-17...job 38:4-61...peter 2:6, ) Jesus had to be plumb and true in order to be built upon (matthew 16:18)...and Jesus said in revelation all 12 stones(1 peter 2:5) are the foundation of the house of God/church, as such they have to line up with the cornerstone and therefore must be true in order to build a functional/straight building that the capstone can "rest" on (zechariah 4:7)...+ it is interesting to note the meaning of "shouts" in zech 4:7...see strong's #8663 cf #7722...

    paul said..."but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground/foundation of the truth." 1 timothy 3:15

    this verse (matthew 10:22-28) can be about the individual christian and his personal "walk" in that it says that he will not cover all the cities of israel on His(Christs) "mission"...before the Son of Man comes...and the verse (matthew 24:9-14) can be about the individual christian "walking/enduring" at the end of "time" ...both must "endure/stand firm/be preserved" in the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints (jude 3)...

    further to this...OT saints believed in "Yahweh/God"...they believed that there was a Messiah/Redeemer/Yeshua and that the Holy Spirit of God "hovered" over the face of the water (genesis 1:2)...the same belief that was shared by the NT saints...revealed by Jesus in thename of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...

    revealed by Jesus..."this is the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone...nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved". acts 4:11-12

    love michelle

  • myelaine

    dear tyrone...

    "Think of what it takes to kill a man. Can you do it? Jesus can, if he doesn't like you, despite the fact that he already died for your sins. If the price has been paid. It has been paid regardless. Once we are restored again and mess up, then pass your judgement. Don't kill your creations in a state of imperfection, when you just paid for us all. Talk about playing games."...

    ?Think of what it takes to kill a man. Can you do it?...Jesus gives man LIFE...everlasting LIFE...as a man you decide to refuse it, even tho it HAS already been paid for...who's playing the games?

    love michelle

  • myelaine

    ?Think of what it takes to kill a man. Can you do it?...


    And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.~Jesus

    love michelle

  • startingover

    Thumbs up Tyrone, you nailed it! It's not fair, nor does it make any sense. Unless of course you have a brain that is somehow wired with a need to believe. So those of us not wired that way will never be understood by those who do and vice versa, but it seems that the end result is that we will all die, end of story. There is no proof otherwise.

  • myelaine

    dear startingover...

    "Unless of course you have a brain that is somehow wired with a need to believe. So those of us not wired that way will never be understood by those who do and vice versa,"...

    so throughout your entire course as a JW you were a non-believing place-holder?...you're right I don't understand...

    love michelle

  • startingover


    My answer to that question would be yes. I was born and raised in it and I always felt like something was amiss. Placeholder might not be the word though and I did try to play the game. I would like to avoid hijacking this thread, but since you are obviously "wired" differently than me, I can understand why you wouldn't understand.

  • Newborn

    Dear All,

    Thank you for your interesting comments...not that I feel it made me any wiser........it's so frutstrating not knowing or not being sure of anything anymore. Does God exist? Did Jesus exist? What's really the bible? What's the purpose with everything? What happens when we die? etc etc. Are we coming from the monkeys anyway??

    If I miss anything from being a witness, it would be the feeling of knowing. I guess, I just have to come to terms with the fact that no one knows the truth.

    Thanks again


  • Aculama

    Newborn, You can know. I was at the same point in my life once. I tried to find out if there was truely ANYTHING real concerning the supernatural or God. There have been organizations, false prophets, false teaching, ect. between you and what your looking for. God said that if you seek Him you will find Him. This is either truth or fantasy. I sought Him through scripture and prayer. I would pray a little, then read a little, always open to hear what He had to say. Soon, things that are nothing short of supernatural began to take place. I have had some thunder and lightning experiences, but mostly he comes in that still small voice. I believe you are sincere. If this is true be patient and he will reveal Himself to you. I have had my own personal encounter and filling of the Holy Ghost. Now I've come to a place where no one could ever convince me otherwise. You can find out for yourself. I'll be praying for you.

  • startingover


    If the above advice doesn't work for you like it hasn't for a large number of us, don't be upset. I found I don't need any of the things you mentioned to be content, maybe you will achieve that too. Not knowing is not a bad thing, because I think you are more aware of what's going on if you don't have it in your mind that you know all the answers.

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