JIM_TX- I agree with you - I think Texas officials are handling it properly by stepping into this situation ! The point you made about the Austrian father is my point as well. This abuse is happening in a " private compound" - nobody would know unless someone told the public ! To me personal rights trump religious freedom !
5GO- I agree , I do want to see the guilty parties prosecuted too !
QCMBR- Mrs. Flipper's thoughts on this are as follows : This is black and white reasoning your quote : " When governments fail or are overthrown families survive ". Not always. And you stated , " I don't believe the government is greater than the family". If the family authorities ( parents) are criminally insane enough to rape kids and break their bones even the government is better ! Face the fact that all parents are not like yourself - some have no ability to be responsible for children. When children's safety, even lives are at stake , their human right to freedom comes into play, unless they are worth sacrificing for a principle . Peace out, Mr. & Mrs. Flipper
Renegade Mormons - Abuse of Children- Broken Bones -Many Girls Pregnant
by flipper 86 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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flipper
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sammielee24
The boyfriend was 4 years old???
Gerard...if you had of continued on the next post you would have seen the correction....geesh...sammieswife.
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flipper
SAMMIE - I knew what you meant. LOL! I think Gerard did too- was just trying to be funny ! Teasing about it jokingly ! LOL! Peace out, Mr. Flipper
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Qcmbr
Abuse of children is a subject that horrifies me and drags the greatest feelings of revulsion and desire to inflict revenge upon the abuser and in all honesty I don't know what the answer is.
In my world its such an alien concept and my wife and I often look at our little girls and ask how anyone could ever conceive of hurting them. So here's my answer given in the full recognition that I haven't the first clue on the physical and mental effects of abuse OR on family separation.
On the role of Government:
1 - To control the media portrayal of and sexualisation of women especially minors.
2 - Sexual education not simply focusing on the 'Do what you want - its your body - just use protection' approach but emphasising appropriate responsibility for long term consequences and the desirability and achievability of social control. I wouldn't advocate US style abstinence programs but more frank discussion of women's rights (just as we have made it - in the UK - a case of extreme behaviour to make a racist comment so should also be a punishable behaviour to sexually abuse someone verbally within a school/public setting.) Sexual education (the mechanics) should be introduced years after the social consequences parts of education but certainly preceding puberty. The law and why the law exists regarding underage sex should be explained.
3 - Sexual attraction to minors should be treated as a mental disease that should be counselled for by local GPs and local psychiatrists and men encouraged to seek non-stigma, private counselling and a voluntary nameless register (linked only through national insurance number) to ensure that they don't inadvertantly gain a job that would put them in temptations way. In other words try and give men the tools to control their feelings prior to them committing secret acts of abuse. If I had such feelings I would rather know that I could gain help in a private non-judgmental medical way rather than being tormented by these feelings and ultimately maybe acting on them. Would offer an ultimate medical solution of chemical castration for those who wish to protect their children from themselves.
4 - Ditto the above for those who feel a need to rape.
5 - The use of sex in all forms of media should be controlled so that it isn't displayed outside of appropriate areas (my particular bee is with our newspapers and magazines showing nude women in sexually provocative poses on the front pages so everyone is forced to see - I would prefer that people could choose when to see sexual imagery rather than only have the choice how to explain it to their children.) I have a gut feeling (probably religion taught) that engaging in titillation can lead (men especially) to lose a certain amount of rational control (just like a starving person would act differently to well fed one) and I think the over stimulation of our sexual responses may tip a few people over the edge of control and to perform acts of abuse. So in a nutshell - reduce the public, unchosen, exposure to sexual ideas and imagery. Where sex is portrayed it can be encouraged as part of stable healthy relationships rather than as the transient non-committal acts of no consequence. Because as a society we still have IMO immature ideas of sex we tend to cater for hollywood sex rather than the healthier and more realistic joyful experience it is where not every man has to last for hours and every women has balloons for boobs and every possible position is required every time. Still before I end off topic back to my suggestions.
6 - Legalise prostitution. With a better public acceptance and a healthier attitude to choice without stigma I think many frustration related sexual abuses may be avoided (not all just some.)
7 - Where a minor or partner (or anyone!) is in immediate physical danger then provision must be made for them. Here is where I have no clear idea what needs to happen.
8 - The media must be prosecuted where they report or insinuate information regarding sexual allegations prior to conviction. This is not censorship but the protection of ones right to a fair trial and on aquittal annonymity. Media storms can do more damage than original acts.
9 - Men must be revalued by society - they have been treated as emasculated pleasue seekers with no real responsibility by certain policy decisions for too long. Likewise marriage should be revalued as a family arrangement (rather than a simple romantic ideal) and policy used to promote late , well thought out stable marriage (maybe make it compulsary to attend a mixture of parenting and social responsibilty classes before achieving a state sanctioned union.) If financial inducements are used to reward marriage then it may be possible to encourage well thought out stable family relationships with better marriages built not on principles of conflict and dominance but on service and responsibility. I think this would have an impact upon abuse of all parties.
10 - To hold regular public think tanks and referendums to fine tune social policy and advance latest ideas and research about the causes and potential social, physical, legal solutions and guards for this issue. I.E. pool the people's thinking towards this and empower people to make an impact - make it a matter of public conscience in a positive way rather than simply an awful crime.
That's it my thinker is thunked out. -
sammielee24
I really think this issue is way bigger than can be argued at this point.
First of all - everything we are hearing is 'alleged'. There has been no proof, no charges and a lot of 'we believe' or 'we think' or 'they allege'. Doesn't mean some things are not true, doesn't mean that they all are true. I don't like the cult and in actuality I don't think any cult should be allowed to have kids in it - even JW's - simply because I think the emotional and social scarring can outweigh any benefit it might have, but my belief doesn't trump any of your rights as people to have those kids. I tend to side with Warlock in regards to the legal issue and quite likely this will also end up being a civil rights issue now that the ACLU is involved. As one guy put it - the FLDS might just own the state of Texas after they get done with them in court- so who knows how it will go?
Reading on these posts people seem to think because a person is questioning the legality of the raid, that this must mean support for the cult. That's simplistic reasoning at best. There were a lot of ways this could have been handled - I think it could have been done better but I'm not a Texas legal beagle.
WARLOCK- You can only pick and choose in this situation because there is an obvious flouting of the law here as they know who is doing it to these girls. Men in the compound. The Mormon women aren't protecting the children. They are covering over it out of fear of the men . I'm not saying to go after every single or married adult male in the country who made minor girls pregnant. You could never find them all. But they do know , and are in the process of investigating who are abusing these girls in the Mormon compound.
This forum just had a topic on 'spanking rooms'. If physical punishment to this extent is known or has been known to exist inside the Kingdom Halls and we all know who is abusing those kids, then imagine yourself sitting in that Kingdom Hall with your 2 kids and suddenly being surround by armed guards and armoured vehicles and forcibly removing your kids from you. You would believe that the great persecution is upon you now and that would have been proof of your truth. You would have been perhaps a tad puzzled as to why corporal punishment was an issue.
Are we jumping on the bandwagon and focusing only on the sex issue or are we willing to engage a broader range of abuse to include the physical, emotional and mental? So yes, we can pick and choose - just as we do when we decide on our own parameters defining abuse. I respect everyone's opinion on this issue since nobody has once said they don't want the abusers punished and the victims helped - even though some posters seem hell bent on wanting to play it that way. sammieswife.
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flipper
I have to go to work all day and into the night- I'll reply tomorrow to the last 2 posts ! Take care,Peace out, Mr. Flipper
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sammielee24
I'm also curious about a few comments that I heard on the news interviews when all this first broke. That might be one reason why I keep smelling witch hunt instead of negotiation, compromise and compassion.
The very first day all this hit the fan, I watched an interview with one of the officials who led the charge. That interview has since never been on the air. The State official heading this said that they had 'someone working inside' for or with them, for the past 4 years. My very first thought was 'why did it take 4 years then'? If the impregnation and abuse was occuring on such a daily basis, then surely to heavens, there would have been ample evidence within 1 year? If then this were the case, then is the State not culpable for neglecting to act sooner and saving those others kids from that fate? I then started asking myself why a plant by the State and for what reason and was it legal?
The other comment that tweaked my interest was the interview between the Jessop woman who works as a go between for FLDS women and the authorities. Her career is to get women out. In one interview I watched with her describe how she got the hoax calls but in the beginning she thought they were real. She and another man then were recording the calls and she was then believing that the woman was a fraud and she recorded subsequent calls between them. Her interview left me with the understanding that she knew for some time that the caller was a fraud, the guy they wanted was in another State but that she had been the push behind the Texas authorities to go in and raid that compound. I found myself confused about her part in all this and how it would all fit in with 'reasonable' facts to act. I haven't heard much more on those interviews either.
In the end, abusers need to be stopped and punished and I trust they will be. sammieswife.
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Bonnie_Clyde
Shawn10538:
Mainstream Mormons are going to act like these "Renegade" Mormons have no connection whatsoever to the mainstream (read most popular) form of Mormonism. Yet, these so called renegades have a more honest interpretation of the book of Mormon. Fact, the book of Mormon by Joseph Smith recommends polygamy. That's where they got the idea in the first place. OK maybe the Bible started it all, but in any case, these Mormons are operating off of the same gold plates as mainstream Mormons. It wasn't until the Mormon church was being indicted by federal government that they miraculously and suddenly and coincidentally got a "revelation" that they should no longer practice polygamy. How like JWs are the Morons? Lots! Mormons will condemn this so called splinter group even though they practiced the same exact teachings for most of their history. How hypocritical it is then for Mormons to look down on this group as if they are innocent of the same charges. Mormonism, whether a splinter group or mainstream with a member running for office, is a CULT. CCCCUUUULLLLTTTT!!!!!
Qcmbr:
Book of Jacob - from the Book of Mormon
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.I agree with Shawn about the mainstream Mormons being just as cultish as the renegade ones. However, I'm trying to figure out how the above verses from the book of Jacob apply. It sounds like it is condemning anyone with more than one wife. Am I reading it backwards? I have a book of Mormon here on my desk. These verses are in chapter 2.
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Qcmbr
Yep - those words do condemn anyone with more than one wife - just thought I'd put up a quote following Shawn's post.
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5go
This forum just had a topic on 'spanking rooms'. If physical punishment to this extent is known or has been known to exist inside the Kingdom Halls and we all know who is abusing those kids, then imagine yourself sitting in that Kingdom Hall with your 2 kids and suddenly being surround by armed guards and armoured vehicles and forcibly removing your kids from you. You would believe that the great persecution is upon you now and that would have been proof of your truth. You would have been perhaps a tad puzzled as to why corporal punishment was an issue.
One problem with that would be no one lives at a kingdom hall. Two If a raid did happen and you knew there was a danger of abuse and you were knowingly exposing your kids to it. You should lose your kids and have to prove you are fit parent.
Like I said on another thread CPS does not have to prove a crime just the child is in danger. Which in the case of the Mormon compound was obvious and easy. Your scenario would be harder to prove a danger to the child but if they did, I would support their removal.
Notice in both instances a judge must be consulted before an action ( the removal ) can happen. Which puts it firmly in the realm of constitutionality.