Criticism worthy of your time

by johnnyc 71 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  DocBob

  Deep hatred for something often leads to irrational behavior, and unwillingness to consider alternative viewpoints.

  Those of us who were JWs obviously HAVE considered alternative viewpoints

  About 2 years ago I started an active search for “God”, only to be very disappointed in what I found out there, and have been disillusioned with certain realizations I had about the subject matter altogether.

  Where was the "out there" where you looked for God?

  I’ve since been looking all over for information, and truthfully have been considering going back to being a JW (though have not acted upon it) based on not finding anything better out there.

  Once again with the "out there" - as though the WT organization and "out there" are the only two possibilities. Have you considered that your relationship with God, like your relationship with anyone else is not so much about gaining information as it is about experiencing that person? There is a huge difference between knowing ABOUT God (or anyone else) and KNOWING them.

  My wife is now pregnant, and this has hastened my desire to settle upon something. My visit to this site was based upon my deep inner desire to find a “smoking gun” on why I shouldn’t be a JW – yet most of what I have read so far seems to be rantings of an extreme position.

  If your relationship with God is based on whether or not you are a JW or any other denomination, then your relationship is not with God, but with the organization. Rather than looking for some organization to "fix you up" with God, why not build your relationship with God, through Christ, and then let Him point you the body of believers He wants you to fellowship with?
• 

  SPAZnik

  johnny, are you criticising my criticisms?
• 

  johnnyc

  To Mouthy: I am sorry to hear of your bad experience. It is very unfortunate when a religious belief is at the root of a family being torn apart, especially since everything Jesus stood for was about love and uniting under his tutelage. Concerning the belief that 1914 AD is the date by which Christ was enthroned upon his heavenly sovereignty to rule over his kingdom, that is a very difficult study. To be certain, it was not a date by which Pastor Russell set upon steadfastly from the beginning of its inception - nor were the assurances given of its perceived fulfillment realized according to plan. I think it could be argued that the post designation of an “invisible” coming (in place of the perceived actual physical coming) could be called “convenient”, and the events of the time which JW’s use to support the date’s authenticity “less than obvious”. What I think about the date’s accuracy is not the defining question though. The real question would be: “Do I think Russell (and now the governing body of the Watchtower) has the authority, and by extension insight from God, to reveal such things to me?”. You state that your disbelief in 1914 is the reason you were “kicked out”. I would ask the question, why were you there if you didn’t believe the GB had authority and insight into 1914? In the book “Crisis of Conscience”, I am amazed that Raymond Franz had pinpointed precise issues (1914 being atop the list) he had with the WT organizational teachings, while basically admitting most other beliefs (which set JW’s apart) were viewed by him as being correct. In truth, the basic question and answer people should deal with is about authority, since everything else flows from that point (in my opinion). I am currently working on my personal answer to that aforementioned question...which has brought me here.
• 

  Hortensia

  I've only been on this forum a little over a year and I have seen many deep topics discussed over and over. In fact, I think the folks who have hung around the longest show a great deal of patience answering the same questions over and over. And of course, over and over, we got folks who, in their very first post, tell us what's wrong with us. Why not just participate and see if you find it useful, rather than starting off with a patronizing observation that isn't particularly true?

  Also, I find your desire for a smoking gun to convince you that the JWs don't have the true to be kind of strange. It reminds me of the opposite side - the generation that asked for a sign and then couldn't see the signs right in front of them. You are asking for a smoking gun - there are lots of them as has been pointed out in detail. Why aren't you looking at them? You don't need a sign, or a smoking gun. You just need to think independently. Use your mind, man.
• 

  BizzyBee

  Do I think Russell (and now the governing body of the Watchtower) has the authority, and by extension insight from God, to reveal such things to me?”. You state that your disbelief in 1914 is the reason you were “kicked out”. I would ask the question, why were you there if you didn’t believe the GB had authority and insight into 1914? In the book “Crisis of Conscience”, I am amazed that Raymond Franz had pinpointed precise issues (1914 being atop the list) he had with the WT organizational teachings, while basically admitting most other beliefs (which set JW’s apart) were viewed by him as being correct. In truth, the basic question and answer people should deal with is about authority, since everything else flows from that point (in my opinion).

  Russell and the GB are just men whose only authority is what is ascribed to them by their constituents, not God. That fealty can and should be rescinded when it is proven to be no longer warranted. The JW organization has been shown, by any standard, to be not worthy of belief or loyalty. That is the position wherein most of us here find ourselves. Otherwise, we are talking about BLIND LOYALTY, usually defined as loyalty that does not take into consideration any concept of reality, truth, or credibility.

  You talk as if this type of "belief" were a virtue, as though one were given a road map for a long journey, and as one travels, it is revealed that none of the landmarks along the way are accurate. One can continue into the maze, lost and wandering but stubbornly adhering to an incorrect map. Or, one can say, "This map is clearly wrong - it has to be thrown out or I will waste time becoming more and more lost and further from my desired destination."

  It is also called, "Throwing good after bad." Personally, I wasted the most important years of my life - birth to 23 - before I wised up.
• 

  pseattle2

  Quite the contrary, I’ve found references in the WT literature praising some of the work the UN does for humanitarian purposes.

  Dude... are we talking about the same WT here? You're talking about The Watchtower, right? That magazine the Jehovah's Witnesses publish? Not the Bob Dylan song?

  Sorry, I'm being snarky there.

  I now realize my initial response to you might have sounded a bit pie-in-the-sky and didn't give you enough specific answers.

  All I gotta say to you is this: You left 8 years ago because something didn't work. You're considering going back now, I guess because you don't want your child to lack a religious structure, and you just haven't found a suitable replacement for the JW's.

  The thing is this: Faith has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS MINUTIAE, these false numbers, this false corporation posing as a religion, and their arbitrary rules. People become JW's because they want to be controlled.

  You apparently need something else to control you and think that's the only answer for your child.

  You, and your child, and your wife, can do much, much better. I urge you to keep investigating, keep asking, keep doubting, and keep looking behind the curtain. Please.

  I hate seeing someone fall twice for this bullshit just because they discovered The World Was Difficult Without It. Yeah, it was difficult. But better. Much fuckin' better.

  Take care my friend.
• 

  mouthy

  To Mouthy: I am sorry to hear of your bad experience. It is very unfortunate when a religious belief is at the root of a family being torn apart, especially since everything Jesus stood for was about love and uniting under his tutelage. Concerning the belief that 1914 AD is the date by which Christ was enthroned upon his heavenly sovereignty to rule over his kingdom, that is a very difficult study. To be certain, it was not a date by which Pastor Russell set upon steadfastly from the beginning of its inception - nor were the assurances given of its perceived fulfillment realized according to plan. I think it could be argued that the post designation of an “invisible” coming (in place of the perceived actual physical coming) could be called “convenient”, and the events of the time which JW’s use to support the date’s authenticity “less than obvious”. What I think about the date’s accuracy is not the defining question though. The real question would be: “Do I think Russell (and now the governing body of the Watchtower) has the authority, and by extension insight from God, to reveal such things to me?”. You state that your disbelief in 1914 is the reason you were “kicked out”. I would ask the question, why were you there if you didn’t believe the GB had authority and insight into 1914? In the book “Crisis of Conscience”, I am amazed that Raymond Franz had pinpointed precise issues (1914 being atop the list) he had with the WT organizational teachings, while basically admitting most other beliefs (which set JW’s apart) were viewed by him as being correct. In truth, the basic question and answer people should deal with is about authority, since everything else flows from that point (in my opinion). I am currently working on my personal answer to that aforementioned question...which has brought me here.

  Thanks for responding...as I said I believed ALL the WT except the invisable apperance of Jesus.I wondered why they would continue to have the Memorial supper when Jesus said it would stop when he came? I only mentioned my disbelief to an elder, HE took it to the board THEY all decided I was not thinking wt orders...I was kicked out INTACT with ALL I had learned ,wanted to kill myself ,thought I was a JUDUS!!! until after two years dispondency,the HOLY SPIRIT began to teach me .LOVE!!!! UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. & to use my brain. Would a loving GOD allow me to lose all my family because I couldnt accept an invisable JESUS.!!!!.NOW I DO accept an invisable JESUS!!!! & I have the love of MANY,MANY,MANY friends. I find the name above all others JESUS CHRIST> The WAY,TRUTH,LIFE!is MY BEST FRIEND
• 

  Burger Time

  I find it amazing that because this guy has a differing opinion, there are a good majority who immediately go on the defensive. I don't agree at all about the U.N. thing he said, but he articulated well why it doesn't bother him. He didn't attack anyone on the board about it either. Again if he was some abused person who hadn't gotten screwed by the WTS and hated them the majority of people on here would be "love bombing" and leaping praise upon the individual. All I can do is shake my head.
• 

  TD

  Johnny,

  The real question would be: “Do I think Russell (and now the governing body of the Watchtower) has the authority, and by extension insight from God, to reveal such things to me?”.

  What did Russell reveal? (In the context of what the antecedent to "such things" would be.)

  What, in your opinion is the connection between Russell and the "governing body of the Watchtower?"
• 

  Finally-Free

  I come here to discuss the idiots in the watchtower cult because it takes my mind off of the idiots I have to work with.

  W