who said the bible "alone". but it always depended heavily on "the bible". or, better said, authoritative scripture, no matter if it was called bible back then and no matter if many of the scriptures they used back then are not even available anymore or where not included into any canon.
and you bet they took stories like the flood and talking donkeys literally.
Atheist in U.S. poll 4% ------ Atheist on JWD 90 % ?
by caliber 67 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Superfine Apostate
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wanderlustguy
Nothing like really studying the bible to make you an athiest...or at least agnostic.
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MissingLink
First off - we're not all americans here. The USA has one of the highest theism rates (I'm guessing it's linked to the poor public education system )
A recent poll in Ireland showed that 25% of the catholics don't believe in god.
It depends how you ask the question. If you ask are you atiest or catholic you get less than 10%. If you ask do you believ in god or not - you get 25%.
Religion is just a social club for loads of people.
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FlyingHighNow
Religion is just a social club for loads of people.
The Catholic Church for one example:
- Schools
- Hospitals
- Orphanages
- Homes for mothers in trouble
- Adoption agencies and foster parent programs
- Catholic social services
- Counseling for the distressed and mentally ill
- Drug counseling
- Food banks
- Meal programs
- Blood drives
- Clothing distribution
- Aid to disaster victims
- Refuge for political refugees
- Political activism where people are too down and weak to stand up for themselves
Those are a few of the things the Catholic Social Club accomplishes worldwide. I'd like to know if the atheists group together and do these kinds of things for their fellow humans?
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Galileo
I'd like to know if the atheists group together and do these kinds of things for their fellow humans?
I think you are making the mistake that many make, that is that atheists are a unified group, like a religious group. That is not the case. We do not tend to have a broad social network and hierarchy complete with massive donations in order to easily set up a charity. There is no atheist group that has aywhere near the resources of the Catholic Church. Also, if I as an atheist wish to donate to, say, a charity set up to feed the homeless, it would be much simpler to give to an established charity, even if they are religious, than to found a competing charity just to have the moniker of an "atheist charity."
That being said, there are many atheist and secular charties. Here is a partial list I got from richarddawkins.net :
Fred Hollows Foundation... This Foundation has worked in 29 countries and has restored sight to more than a million people. Even after he was diagnosed with cancer Fred continued with his work. He died 11 years ago. Fred was very outspoken on his atheist beliefs. His widow, Gabi Hollows took over the Foundation after his death.
S.H.A.R.E....Secular Humanist Aid and Relief Effort, a 25-year old organization.
Food banks... such as Second Harvest
Toy-for-Tots
The Nature Conservancy
Planned Parenthood
The American Cancer Society
Project Gutenberg.....they distribute free books (free knowledge, essentially) online, and have a Paypal link for donations.
The Zoological Society of San Diego..... which has done great things such as help to reintroduce the extinct-in-the-wild Arabian Oryx and is in progress on a successful-looking program to reintroduce California Condors.
The World Wildlife Fund..... a good one. Only 5% of funds go to admin costs. Committed to working with the many indigenous peoples of the world.
Rethink..... Working together to help everyone affected by severe mental illness recover a better quality of life.
The American Foundation for AIDS Research
Heifer Project International..... which provides income-producing animals to promote self-reliance for families and communities in poverty-stricken areas. Families that receive gifts of animals are required to pass on one or more of their animal's offspring to other needy families. Only 6% goes to admin costs, although fund raising costs are a healthy chunk at nearly 20%.
Mama's Kitchen..... "Nurturing the heart, one meal at a time." -
caliber
FHN,
Thanks for opening my thread again,I always worry about beating a point to death ,but you sparked a whole new angle!
A good question to ask ourselves as below........ What is our personal expectation of God ?
My therapist told me something interesting to think about: God is not an enabler. If he stopped everything painful, humankind wouldn't learn a blasted thing. People cause all kinds of messes. God doesn't get us out of every scrape that people cause. God didn't let anyone down. People let you down.
Caliber
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Galileo
If he stopped everything painful, humankind wouldn't learn a blasted thing.
This is typical apologist nonsense. I would never go to that therapist again. People have learned plenty that didn't require suffering. What kind of suffering was required to learn the shape and size of the earth? Gravity? Quantum Mechanics? Did Niels Bohr break his arm and think to himself "Damn that smarts! But on the upshot, I suddenly understand the structure of an atom!"
What kind of pain did I have to endure to learn that I love literature and movies? Or that I'm not a big fan of circuses? Are you going to tell a child with MS that god gave it to them because he wanted them to learn something? I'm glad god doesn't want me to learn that lesson.
Sure, there are things we wouldn't learn if god prevented pain, namely, we wouldn't learn how to deal with painful things! But then, if there were no pain, we wouldn't need to. This kind of reasoning, while I grant it may provide comfort to those with a certain unquestioning mindset, simply does not hold up to scrutiny.
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FlyingHighNow
I think you are making the mistake that many make, that is that atheists are a unified group, like a religious group.
No, I'm not making a mistake. I know you don't tend to be a unified group. My question was for the purpose of making a very important an valid point.
While I was on a trek to the grocery store and bank just now I recalled the Catholic church also comforts and ministers to the dying and their loved ones and friends. Churches also sponsor hospices.
Churches offer much more than social activities. I would venture to say that social activities are not the primary reason people attend church. It is the giving example of Jesus, even if you think he was a fictious character, that draws people to churches, much of the time. Since atheists do not have this central figure and example, they don't tend to band together to set in place varied and major outreach efforts under one umbrella. If someone espouses the "survival of the fittest" thinking, it's less likely they will spend a lot of time figuring out ways to unite people in helping fellow humans who are in some dire need or strait. I said less likely. I did not mean completely unlikely.
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FlyingHighNow
I would never go to that therapist again.
Then you'd be foolish. She is the best one I have been to. I've been to several. She has helped me more than any of them even combined and she treats me probono. I give her what I can afford.
If he stopped everything painful, humankind wouldn't learn a blasted thing.
This is typical apologist nonsense. I would never go to that therapist again. People have learned plenty that didn't require suffering.
Did you think she meant that man could only learn from pain? I can't believe you really thought she said that or I meant that you could only learn from suffering. You are taking my comment out of context. We were speaking of the scrapes humankind gets its self into. Go back and read my original comment and this time, please don't take it out of context.
Of course we learn from the beautiful and positive things God or the Great Spirit has given us. I have learned that someone very caring, remarkable and generous has given us this beautiful earth and the abilitys to write literature and music, build, landscape and so on into infinity.
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Galileo
FlyingHigh: First, let me just make clear that I wouldn't have dissed your therapists comments if this were a thread about being comforted by Jesus or whatever. But this is a thread about atheists, so I felt like it was fair game. I have nothing against you personally, you seem like a sweet woman. I'm actually a pretty nice guy myself. However:
Did you think she meant that man could only learn from pain? I can't believe you really thought she said that or I meant that you could only learn from suffering. You are taking my comment out of context. We were speaking of the scrapes humankind gets its self into.
No, I didn't think that's what she meant or what she or you think. But that's what she said. She said:
If he stopped everything painful, humankind wouldn't learn a blasted thing.
Furthermore, if that isn't the only way to learn, then she has no point. Her point only makes sense if that's the only option. If there are other ways that we could learn, or that god could teach us, then we're right back to the unspoken question that lies at the heart of that satement: "why does god allow suffering." In order to be accurate, since you have just admitted that you realize and believe she also realizes that there are other ways to learn she would have to say: "If god stopped everything painful, we would have to learn without pain." Although I suppose that doesn't really explain anything. But then, neither did her original statement, as I already pointed out.
Of course, in this world, where god doesn't intervene, then going through suffering teaches us to deal with suffering, which is necessary. But if god did intervene, then learning to deal with suffering would be unnecessary. I know what she meant, but I was pointing out that what she said was utterly illogical and actually makes god look bad, in my opinion.