real one --- please provide proof here (page 21)

poppers

Shakespeare believed in Jesus

And in what way is this proof? Are you suggesting that this is going to persuade people to believe anything about Jesus? Why?

real one

poppers its just a very famous person who put his faith in Jesus

real one

bringen all historians that agree to the truth are not all christians

"real one", the problem is that we are talking two completely different languages. When you are speaking to a skeptic, you must spend some time learning how they see the world. You have a fundamentally different point of view on what is "proof". For a skeptic and in a court of law, there are various levels of evidence. The farther the evidence is from the source, the less credible the evidence is.

Under the Federal Rules of Evidence (FRE) Rule 401: "Relevant evidence" means evidence having any tendency to make the existence of any fact that is of consequence to the determination of the action more probable or less probable than it would be without the evidence.

See for instance, the difference between direct evidence and hearsay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_evidence

And the Skeptic's toolbox contains Occam's razor, assigning burden of proof, and extraordinary claims http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-80924583.html Please take the time to learn how these work before you take on a skeptic again. You are unprepared.

I know you are not following these rules because you go from a secondary source of evidence (the bible) to tertiary (Shakespeare). You go from greater credibility to silliness. For instance, I am a skeptic, but a Christian. I believe that Jesus existed and died on the cross. I believe in the significance of that sacrifice. On the other hand, I don't think you, or anyone, or the bible, provides absolute truth on the matter. You now make the extraordinary claim that Shakespeare was first of all not a Christian, and also believed in Jesus as if that were some sort of proof. It's not like Shakespeare can come back from the grave and verify your account. What does any one man's opinion weigh in on the matter?

On another point, I spent some time analysing the three scriptures you provided. Are you going to invest a similar amount of effort in analysing my findings? These one-line answers are disrespectful.

kwintestal

poppers its just a very famous person who put his faith in Jesus

Yes, but in that time period many people who stated they didn't believe in him were killed. Do you want a list of famous people who don't believe?

Any evidence of this outside of the bible?

real one, about 60 years ago in a cave was found what's now called the "Dead Sea Scrolls". These scrolls were of immence importance to believers, especially Christians as they were written in the 300 BC to 100 AD time period. real one ... they were written WHILE JESUS (supposedly) WALKED THE EARTH!!! And they were untouched during that time. So, shouldn't there be something in them about Jesus? WHY ISN'T THERE?

One problem with the NT real one, is you cannot tell what parts of it have been doctored. You can't tell WHO wrote them. The church in the first few centuries had the power to do whatever it was they wanted. To add, delete or ammend, and destroy any evidence that it was changed. Remember, "He who controls the past, controls the future." That was so true in that day. But, as much as they tried, they couldn't delete all evidence. That is why you find writings like the "Gospel of Thomas." Have you read that gospel, real one? If so, I'd like to get your opinion on childhood Jesus' pranks. This is a person's testomony after all, but there is a very good reason it isn't part of the bible cannon.

I guess what I'm saying, real one ... is that if you want to prove Jesus to us, you have to give us proof OUTSIDE of the bible. Something independantly verifiable and trustworthy, not something with the great potential for amending that the bible has had over the years, and especially over the first few hundred years after it was written. This would be proof that scientists can't deny. YOU, real one, said it was available ... please provide it.

Kwin

nomoreguilt

I can't believe that real one is still getting so much play here. With all of the comments that have been made to him, he still doesn't get it. A simple matter of evidence seems to escape him. Surely WE all know of the bible account of jesus, but where is the HISTORICAL account of him?

Perhaps he likes to live by faith alone, that's commendable on his part. But when you have a book, such as the bible that has been written and rewritten, edited to satisfy the needs of some and edited to satisfy the needs of others, there is alot of room for MISCHIEF!

My 2 cents worth.

But then again, I am one of real one's detractors.

I have noticed however that in a few of his posts that he is trying to walk our walk and talk our talk. But to what end? For a moment I thought that perhaps he had been swayed by our rebuttals of him.

NMG

real one

i only walk the walk of Jesus Christ. Yes at this point I am living entirely on my faith in Christ because i know how my life has changed and continues to change because of Him.

Kwin do the dead sea scrolls contain the ot cause if it does then it speaks of Jesus

I have enough faith in God that He would not allow His word to be changed and it go unnoticed perfect example nwt

jgnat sorry i dont have time to write pages of a lot of unuseful info. KISS, i get to the point

real one

the eyewitneses are in the Bible of what they saw...dr Luke, Matt,John,Paul...Tacitus ( who was a secular writer) Historian

kwintestal

Kwin do the dead sea scrolls contain the ot cause if it does then it speaks of Jesus

That's not my point, and you know it. Why don't the dead sea scrolls say "Hey! This guy called Jesus from Nazereth just showed up and raised this dead guy, and made this blind guy see, and cured the lepers!"? Don't you think that writings from the time of Jesus would be shouting this? Don't you think that it's suspiscious that they don't say anything about it?

This brings me to another point ... Paul. You've mentioned Paul's writings several times, so I would assume that you are familiar with them. Why is it that Paul never mentions any of Jesus' earthly life. He mentions his death on a cross, reserection, and assent to heaven ... but nothing of his earthly miracles. Wouldn't it be THESE THINGS that he would be using to build people's faith. After all, these people in the various congregations would have seen or heard first hand of these miracles ... but not once does Paul mention any of them? It's no coincedence that the gospels were written AFTER Paul's life.

Kwin

kwintestal

Paul was not an eye witness. He saw nothing.

Kwin

real one --- please provide proof here

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