Partaking of the emblems at home - need thoughts/experiences please

by wildfell 58 Replies latest jw friends

  • wildfell
    wildfell

    justhuman and BurnTheShips - your posts have me intrigued.

    I was raised in an Orthodox Church that claims to have as its foundation one of the Apostles and can trace it's history back 2000 years. While thinking about what you both stated, I had a memory recall from my childhood. I do now remember being told that the the bread (or wafer as it was) and wine would turn into Christ's real flesh and blood. I also remember testing this information out shortly thereafter at mass, when I tried to sneak a bit of the wafer out of my mouth for a looksee. To my relief, the wafer was still a wafer and I concluded that it could not logically be true.

    So, it was easy to believe jw teaching that emblems are merely symbolic. However, I now wonder whether the emblems are really Christ's flesh and blood but in a spiritual sense rather than a physical sense? Hard to articulate what I mean ............... so I am not going to try. I have more thinking to do on this point.

    So in order to have the Blessing of Jesus the only way to have the Holy Communion was through the Church.

    justhuman - I thought about this statement, however, I also think about Jesus' words when he said 'if two or more are gathered in my name, there I am also'. He also said, "When you pray, go into your room close the door, and pray to your Father who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you".

    Jesus also told the Samaritan woman that physical location of worship was not paramount, but rather that worship must be done 'spirit and truth'. Additionally, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be granted to all his disciples - so, if I am deemed by God to be worthy of Holy Spirit, why do I need a man or a Church to worship God?

    So, in consideration of those scriptures, I do not at this point believe that I am precluded from commemorating this solemn ritual at home.

    I would eventually like to go to a church to receive communion and now having been influenced by what you and BurnTheShips have said, I think I may return to the church I was raised in (like a dog returning to it's vomit, as the jw's say, lol).

    Also, Ignatius' Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 A.D. 110
    "Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . .. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes"

    This quote can be wholly applied as a description of jehovah's witnesses, can it not? And we who were incarcerated by this cult, did not partake of the emblems and "deny the gift of God" and "are perishing". My mind boggles!!!!

    Thanks for the explanations and the links. I have a lot of reading to do.

    kind regards

    wildfell

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    So, it was easy to believe jw teaching that emblems are merely symbolic. However, I now wonder whether the emblems are really Christ's flesh and blood but in a spiritual sense rather than a physical sense? Hard to articulate what I mean ............... so I am not going to try. I have more thinking to do on this point.

    The idea you are describing is called "consubstantiation" and it has been considered a heresy by the Apostolic churches since the middle ages. I am not judging you for describing that idea at all, I am just saying that the Orthodox as well as Catholic churches have always taught transubstantiation. Christ was not only present on earth in the spirit, but in the flesh as well. His sacred blood and body cleansed our sins on the Cross.

    I would eventually like to go to a church to receive communion and now having been influenced by what you and BurnTheShips have said, I think I may return to the church I was raised in (like a dog returning to it's vomit, as the jw's say, lol).

    We have several Greek Orthodox Churches in my area. They are very beautiful. The iconography is profound. You have me thinking, maybe I will visit one for the Divine Liturgy this Sunday. The Eastern and Western churches appear to be on the mend the last few decades, hopefully soon they can all share communion together as a united Body.

    Sincerely,

    Burn

  • wildfell
    wildfell

    Just thought of another point -

    The Bible says that Jesus is my mediator. No other person or institution. So, I feel comfortable concluding that I need no-one and no church to take the emblems through. This is my opinion.

    To me, needing a church, even an Apostolic church, is reminiscent of how the governing body was always spouting off how we need them to get to Jesus. I never swallowed that.

    kind regards

    wildfell

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    To me, needing a church, even an Apostolic church, is reminiscent of how the governing body was always spouting off how we need them to get to Jesus. I never swallowed that.

    We certainly do not need any org to turn to Jesus, to be in Christ. But Christ founded the Church, and vested it with authority until His return, such that "whatever they bind on earth is bound in heaven" and vice versa. Seeing how these things are Scripturally evident, and that Scripture itself was written and collected by the Church, as a Christian why would I eschew it?

    Sincerely,

    Burn

  • Finally-Free
    Finally-Free

    Thanks Burn the Ships and Justhuman. I'm going to have to do some reading on this.

    I wasn't raised as a JW, but converted as an adult. I was originally baptised as a Ukrainian Catholic, and went to both Ukrainian and Roman Catholic churches as I grew up. The masses were very different. One huge difference was that in the Ukrainian church the Eucharist was administered by the priest with a small but long handled spoon. Unlike the Roman Catholic church, the bread was soaked with wine. The masses were also longer, and the churches were very different in construction and style. I often wondered if the Orthodox church was like that.

    W

  • wildfell
    wildfell

    We certainly do not need any org to turn to Jesus, to be in Christ. But Christ founded the Church, and vested it with authority until His return, such that "whatever they bind on earth is bound in heaven" and vice versa. Seeing how these things are Scripturally evident, and that Scripture itself was written and collected by the Church, as a Christian why would I eschew it?

    Burn, you certainly have got me thinking these last couple of days!

    You make a very good and indisputable point. Having said that . . . . . I am going to dispute it. Well, kind of.

    Just to give a bit of background: For a while last year, I had been thinking about why there appear (to me anyway) to be few genuine disciples of Christ in Churches. Whether jw or otherwise. I had been feeling the need to join with fellow worshipers in a devotional service. I had missed that so much while I was a jw where all there was offered on jehovahs 'table' was instructional services. So, I was looking for a 'true' church that would abound with genuine Christians. (if there was indeed such a thing - this was probably a left-over from being a jw)

    It was at this time that I read an interesting thought in Crisis of Conscience (pages 396 and 398), where the author shared his opinion that:

    Christ "call is, not "come to my organisation" or "come to a certain church or denomination", but rather it is "come to me" (matt 11:28) In giving the illustration of the vine and its branches, his words were not "I am the vine and religious organisations are the branches and you are the twigs or the leaves connected to those branches," but rather "I am the vine and you are the branches," connected directly to him (john 15:5)

    To feel this way does not imply any failure to recognise that there is indeed a flock of God, a congregation headed by Christ Jesus. How does one become a member thereof? One factor and one factor only is determinative. It is not membership or affiliation with some denomination, church group or organisation. Scripturally, this has no relevance or bearing on the matter. One shows that he or she is a member of that body of believers by being joined to its Head, God's Son, responsive to that Head's direction and guidance, and that alone is determinative. There is only one mediator in God's arrangement and that is Christ Jesus, and no human organisation can insert itself into that picture as a co-mediator or supplementary mediator.

    God's Son gave the assurance that he would have true followers, not just in the first century or in this twentieth century, but in all the centuries in between, for he said, "I am with you always to the close of the age." Intermixed thought they were among all the "weeds" that were bound to come, he would know who these genuine disciples were, not because they belonged to some organisation but because of what they were, as persons. . . . . "The Lord knows those who are his.""

    Burn, that's when I started to ponder the point that the true Church is all us believers. For does not the Bible say that we are all members belonging to one another? - wherever we are around the world and whatever age we have lived in. Something to think about anyway, hey?

    The idea you are describing is called "consubstantiation" and it has been considered a heresy by the Apostolic churches since the middle ages.

    I will definately be googling "consubstantiation"!! Brilliant!! If I believe that, looks like I will be considered apostate by Apostolic churches, too. What a laugh!

    kind regards

    wildfell

  • wildfell
    wildfell
    Ashton

    P.S. I still can't figure out how to quote in the little box like most of yall do. I can't seem to find the button that makes the box to type in the quote.

    Hi Ashton,

    To get the quote box, click on the white balloon with the quotation marks in it. It is located above the U button. It is also to the right of the yellow smiley face.

    Once the quote box opens, click in the box, then click on the paste icon.

    kind regards

    wildfell

  • Eliveleth
    Eliveleth
    Just to give a bit of background: For a while last year, I had been thinking about why there appear (to me anyway) to be few genuine disciples of Christ in Churches. Whether jw or otherwise. I had been feeling the need to join with fellow worshipers in a devotional service. I had missed that so much while I was a jw where all there was offered on jehovahs 'table' was instructional services. So, I was looking for a 'true' church that would abound with genuine Christians. (if there was indeed such a thing - this was probably a left-over from being a jw)

    Wildfell,

    The Bible says that all followers of Jesus are part of His Body or Church. Romans 12:5 "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."

    This Body or Church is not located in one place but is global.

    When I first left the organization, God showed me that the parable of the "wheat and the tares" was a picture of the church. Since Jesus is the farmer that sowed the field, then all the church fellowships contain the wheat. Tares or weeds have been sown in with the wheat. We will all grow together until the harvest and then the angels are the ones who will remove the weeds. We are not the ones that decide who are the wheat or the weeds. Thus there is no one Christian church that contains all the Body of Christ. We cannot find the "true church" in one place, but we can fellowship with other Christians anywhere.

    1 Cor. 10: 16, 17 gives a little food for thought in what it says: "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread"

    This sounds like the bread is figurative of the Body of Christ, which is all Christians. And the taking of the wine and the bread is a communion (meal together) of the Body of Christ. Just a thought. Something to think and pray about.

    I think that if anyone feels the need of fellowship, that any church that teaches that Jesus came to earth as a man and gave His life for us would be acceptable. I think that diversity out there makes it easier to find a place where you are comfortable.

    I am praying for the day when the many churches will see that we need to be united and not divided as the many denominations are today.

    I believe the time is coming when the Christian church will be united until then we choose to fellowship where we are the most comfortable.

    I thought this was an interesting article:

    Love and hugs,

    Velta

    The Credibility Factor

    by Francis Frangipane

    I appreciate and defend the origins of our many denominations. Most were born as godly men fought against the sin and spiritual apostasy of their times. Their heroic stand preserved (or in some cases, restored) the truth of God in an otherwise dark world. From my heart, I thank God for our denominational heritage.

    Today, however, the need to remain divided from other evangelical congregations is unjustified. We can remain unique churches with unique callings and a unique spiritual heritage, yet we can be united spiritually, and even functionally, with other congregations in our communities.

    Knowing Christ has called for unity in His church, many leaders today are re-examining the legitimacy of division in the church. Today's heroes are not isolating themselves from other churches; rather, they are working with others to repair the breaches, seeking to build the citywide church on the foundation of Christ alone.

    Yet, our traditions of division have taken on the garments of orthodoxy; they appear biblical, but they are not. The various divisions in the history of the church were stages in restoration meant to preserve truth, not isolate it.

    Is Christ Divided?

    Every true Christian believes the Bible is God's sacred, eternal word. Indeed, heaven and earth will pass away, but God's word will endure forever. What was relative and powerful in the first century ought to be just as powerful today. Listen, therefore, to what Paul wrote to the Christians in Corinth:

    'Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree, and there be no divisions among you, but you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, 'I am of Paul,' and 'I of Apollos,' and 'I of Cephas,' and 'I of Christ.' Has Christ been divided?' (1 Cor. 1:10-13a).

    How strange that we smugly look upon the divisions in the Corinthian church. We boldly criticize their carnality. But why was it wrong in the first century to say, "I am of Paul" (or Apollos), but permissible in these last days to say, I am of Luther or Wesley or of the Baptists or Pentecostals?

    Again, please remember, I am not suggesting we should strive for unity with churches that do not believe in Christ or God's word or the Holy Spirit or the virgin birth or the second coming. However, I am saying that, within the sphere of the born-again, living church of Jesus Christ, divisions are unbiblical and wrong.

    The apostle later continued, 'For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?' (1 Cor. 3:3).

    The credibility of the church is that we are not 'mere men,' creatures born of women without spiritual vision or destiny. We have been born again of one Spirit from above. Within our spirits is the actual spiritual substance of Christ Himself.

    'Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?' (1 Cor 3:16).

    We are the temple of God. Our churches, like the stones of the temple, are to be laid side-by-side, building us together 'into a dwelling of God in the Spirit' (Eph. 2:22).

    Paul went on to issue a warning which every Christian should heed. He said,

    'If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy' (1 Cor. 3:17).

    We have attempted to use this verse to condemn such things as cigarette smoking and sexual vices, and on an individual basis, there are obvious consequences to these sins. However, Paul is speaking here of more than the sins of excess and immoral pleasure. The apostle is warning against allowing division in the temple of God, the church. He says, 'If any man destroys the temple of God' (through jealousy and strife), 'God will destroy him.' The context is plainly speaking in regard to divisions in the church!

    When pure Christianity degenerates into divided camps of ambitious people, it literally destroys the harmony, power and blessing of the 'temple of God.' The individual who brings or supports such carnal divisions in the church has positioned himself in a very dangerous place before God. The temple of God is holy. Our unity together is holy. Our love for one another is holy, for the Father Himself dwells in the resting place of caring attitudes and loving relationships. Collectively, we are the dwelling place of God on earth.

    The warning is severe: 'If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him.'

    Yes, there are times when church leaders sin and confusion enters the dynamics of church life. So, let's make room for failings and transitions. But let us not lose sight of the fact that the living God is a God of order; He will not dwell in ruins! Because He is a God of love, He will work with us to rebuild, but He will not sanction our fallen condition with power. He will not lend His credibility to our disorder.

    How Does Disunity Affect You?

    When Nehemiah, living among the Jewish exiles, heard of the condition of Jerusalem and its temple, he 'sat down and wept and mourned for days.' The fallen condition of the temple thrust him into an extended position of 'fasting and praying before the God of heaven' (Neh. 1:4). The modern Jews also weep as they face the Wailing Wall, lamenting over the ruins of their temple. Paul mourned when he saw the ruined condition in Corinth. He said, 'For I am afraid ... that perhaps there may be strife, jealousy, angry tempers, disputes, slanders, gossip, arrogance, disturbances; I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned' (2 Cor. 12:20-21). And Jesus Himself wept over the divisions of Jerusalem, lamenting, 'How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling' (Matt. 23:37).

    This mourning concerning the disunified condition of the Father's house ought to be in our hearts as well. Yet, for most of us, not only have we failed to mourn our situation, we have not even grasped that our disunity, jealousy and strife is a fallen state! How far we have fallen and how little we know it!

    While the redemption of man was always motivating Jesus, remember, His most ardent desire was His zeal for His Father's house; He was consumed with it (see John 2:17). Building the house of God --- the born-again, praying, loving, citywide church --- is still Christ's highest priority. The world is His harvest; the church is His bride. His love for the church was the basis of His last recorded prayer: that we would be one. It is still His highest passion today. For, until we are united in Him, and one with one another, our testimony lacks credibility. The world will not believe that God has sent Christ if our lives are infected with the same divisions that plague non-Christians (see John 17:20-23).

    Privileged To Become Christlike

    There were many reasons why Jerusalem fell to Babylon during Jeremiah's day, but underlying them all was the spiritual apostasy of the religious leaders. God Himself would have defended a humble, praying city, but in Jerusalem the spiritual leaders were corrupt. Listen, therefore, to Jeremiah's fearful revelation:

    'The adversary and the enemy could enter the gates of Jerusalem' because of 'the sins of her prophets and the iniquities of her priests' (see Lam. 4:12-13).

    Do we see this? Israel's enemies entered Jerusalem because the spiritual leaders were unrepentantly full of sin. Oh God, help us to see and accept that the future of our cities exists in the corporate relationship the spiritual leaders have with You and one another. Jesus said that any city, any house 'divided against itself' cannot stand (Matt. 12:25). The place of spiritual protection of a community has its origins in the quality of life that exists in the spiritual leadership of that community. In other words, a vibrant, praying, united church will move that city toward the blessing of God; a divided, sinful leadership will allow the adversary to enter the city's gates.

    The path narrows for leadership until our only choice is to become Christlike in everything. However, Christlike leadership in the church can transform the world around it! You see, our cities are in disorder because the church is in disorder. James tells us that where there is jealousy and strife, 'there is disorder and every evil thing' (James 3:16).

    Our selfish ambitions have taken our eyes off the will and purposes of God for our cities. We have become jealous of one another. Consequently, the 'disorder,' lawlessness and 'every evil thing' we see in our society are, at least in part, rooted in the soil of a misdirected and distracted church community.

    Because of this, the church has lost a measure of its credibility. How can we expect the world to hear our message of love when we, as Christ's body, fail to love each other? We have no right to condemn the world for its pride and arrogance when we, the body of Christ, still refuse to humble ourselves and work with the other churches in our neighborhoods.

    Beloved, over the years the world has seen many incredible ministries. However, the time of the '

    'incredible' has passed; the hour for the credible is being established.

  • wildfell
    wildfell

    BurnTheShips said:

    The Eastern and Western churches appear to be on the mend the last few decades, hopefully soon they can all share communion together as a united Body.

    Velta said:

    I am praying for the day when the many churches will see that we need to be united and not divided as the many denominations are today.

    I believe the time is coming when the Christian church will be united until then we choose to fellowship where we are the most comfortable.

    Today, however, the need to remain divided from other evangelical congregations is unjustified. We can remain unique churches with unique callings and a unique spiritual heritage, yet we can be united spiritually, and even functionally, with other congregations in our communities.

    Knowing Christ has called for unity in His church, many leaders today are re-examining the legitimacy of division in the church. Today's heroes are not isolating themselves from other churches; rather, they are working with others to repair the breaches, seeking to build the citywide church on the foundation of Christ alone.

    Hi Velta,

    Interesting article that you quoted. It would appear that there is quite a movement for unity within Churches worldwide. I was unaware. Having been a jw until recently, I have come to realise that I am in complete darkness about many things - as my posts above testify! It's as if I missed out on the gathering of spiritual information and understanding for the last twenty years. Got a lot of catching up to do! And I am loving it!

    I have learnt more about the Bible and about Churches from the community of jwd that I did sitting at meetings for years. Ahhh, the time I wasted..... but that is another story.

    Thanks to the posters on this thread who shared their knowledge.

    kind regards

    wildfell

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