If evolution is true ?

by D wiltshire 88 Replies latest jw friends

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Abbadon,

    What is the solid proof of this statement you make with such conviction:

    Wrong. Matter has not always existed. The Universe started as a singularity (a small, as in REALLY SMALL, subatomically small) point which went bang.
    How do you know it's not a pulsating universe. How can it be proven that matter didn't always exist. What to say that our universe is the only universe there maybe an inifinite number of universes for all we know.
    Were you around forever in the past so you can speak so authoritively.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Creationary Evolution is the theory that warms my cockles.

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    I GUESS Abaddon DOESN'T HAVE SOLID FACTS.

    DOES HE?

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    D Wiltshire;

    No you rude THING (I am so tempted to be as rude to you as you were to me, but I will not treat you that way even if you deserve it), I just have better things to do than spoon-feed physics to you. Maybe I don't obsessively follow the progres of posts I reply to at some point. Maybe I work, and post when I can during the working day. MAybe my life doesn't revolve around you, and the fact I don't get round to answering your questions is not an indication of the weakness of my arguement.

    So, I suppose, having disrespected me, you still expect to be treated with respect and taken seriously? You smell more like a troll every day...

    Well, I'll answer your question, but for the life of me I don't know why I bother as your attitude sucks. To reiterate; GO AND READ SOME BOOKS. YOU ARE NOT STUPID, BUT YOU ARE ASKING QUESTIONS THAT ARE BETTER ANSWERED BY YOU GETTING OFF YOUR FAT ASS AND DOING SOME WORK YOURSELF AND FILLING IN THE GAPS IN YOUR KNOWLEDGE, AS YOU NO LONGER HAVE 'SPIRITUAL FOOD' DELlVERED EACH FORTNIGHT IN THE WTACHTOWER AND AWAKE, YOU HAVE TO DO IT YOURSELF...

    Oh, yeah, your question;

    FACT; The Universe is expanding. I could explain red-shift, blue-shift, radio telescopes and doppler, but I refuse to as if you can't be bothered finding out I can't be bothered telling you. If you dispute this fact, you do so from the same level as a Neolithic hunter gather refusing to accept an scientific explaination of electricity as he didn't understand it.

    FACT; This indicates it started at a certain point and time. Deductive knowledge, you have a brain, you don't need a book for that one.

    FACT; The maths of the equations that explain this process of expansion has been tested in particle accelerators to duplicate the very high temperature present at that time (as the Universe was smaller, but still contained the same amount of energy, so it was hotter as the energy was less spread out). So, I wasn't there, but some guys have made it like it was then, and their sums work. You wanna challenge them? GO TO COLLEGE.

    FACT; We cannot duplicate the first second or so as we don't have powerful enough particle accelerators, so, yes, there is theory involved. But not a lot of unsubstanciated theory.

    FACT; Even IF the Universe contains enough mass to collapse in on itself (want me to explain gravity? NO! Go buy a book!), it will contract to a singularity (explained by other people... if you even bother to read the difficult parts of the answers to your posts) and probably do it all again, so at this stage whether the universe expands or contacts is irrelevant, as it started the same way either way if this is a expanding only Universe or one where the Universe expands and contracts.

    FACT; Once everything is scrunched together, matter ceases to exist, as it is too hot; solids become liquids, yeah? And liquids become gases, yeah? And a gas when heated will become a plasma, like a gas, but with all the atoms so hot and excited they begin to break up into their constituent parts. These constituent parts (electrons, protons, neutrons) can in turn breakdown. This process is all part of the wonderful chain connecting matter to energy.

    Thus, when this Universe exploded, it had no matter. The matter appeared as the explosion cooled as it expanded. Want proof things get hot when compressed? Put your finger over the hole of a bicycle pump and pump it. First elementary particles (want a definition, buy a book), then hydrogen and helium (heavier elements come from solar fusion; we are star dust, billion year-old carbon, all the heavy elements in your body were once in the hearts of stars).

    It doesn't matter if the Universe was exploding having contracted or whether it was the first time. The matter came into being after the explosion;

    THEREFORE MATTER DIDN'T ALWAYS EXIST

    Whether or not there are other Universes is utterly irrelevent to your original question. I think you are better of understanding this one before you worry about that.

    Sorry if I sound pissed off, but your manners SUCK. Act like a pig, get treated like one, be nice get treated nice, very simple, works in real life and on line.

    Be happy

    Keep on rocking in the free world...

  • larc
    larc

    D Willtshire,

    If you have an alternate theory of the origin of the universe, why don't you tell us what it is? In doing so, please take all the facts that have been explained to you into account in your theory. If you can't do that, your theory doesn't hold water.

    You see, a theory is a way of explaining known facts as several people have been trying to explain to you, especially Abaddon. If your theory can not explain what is known, then it is of no value. You simply can't make it up and say it is a good theory, because you believe it. That might work at the local congregation or the neighborhood bar, but it does not work among critical thinkers.

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Lark,
    I have no theory to tell, only guesses from what I've read.
    I don't think a scientist is being truthful when he forms a theory and then proceeds to ignore evidence that conflicts with his choosen conclusion.
    Yeah I know we're only human.
    But I think we need to realize that True Science doesn't hide or down play facts that wound our pet theories.
    True Science needs to be impartial when looking at the facts, and should be interested in all facts and let the facts prove this or that, even if our pet idea gets laid to waste.

    Do some very intelligent Scientist beleive in God? Even ones that beleive in evolution? answer: Yes.
    Are they stupid? answer: No.
    Why are they not stupid? answer: Who has enough proof to truthfully call them stupid?
    I am a lay person and I read science litterature and I feel science has acomplished great things, but as you know in the world of science there is present TRUTH and old TRUTH.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Abbadon,

    You seem to be pointing the finger at me for being rude to you, but really I don't feel I was ... just a little blunt maybe

    Remember that old saying that when we point our finger at some one there are 3,or 4 pointing back at us?
    Well this is your post to me before I was a little blunt to you:

    Yeah, but your postulate revealed (without being rude), that before you get round to postulating you'd better do some learning. If you had a high school or sophomore level knowledge of the Sciences, you wouldn't have asked the question as you'd know it was silly to anyone with a decent level of science education. I'm not saying you are dumb, just you need to learn.
    You were in effect saying I must not have finished High School, you don't have any facts to make this statement. And now when I respond your feelings get hurt.
    If you can't take it don't dish it out. Actually you sound a little haughty in the above quote.

    Here's another quote from you same post:

    Wrong. Matter has not always existed. The Universe started as a singularity (a small, as in REALLY SMALL, subatomically small) point which went bang.
    Sounds pretty dogmatic to me, kinda like some religious people I know.

    And this one too same post, where you put on a show of, I'm more intelligent that you act:

    Now, my level of understanding of the above physics is slightly better than your understanding of evolution I'd say, but I fully admit that's a vert layperson explination, so any one who can do better I salute and open the floor to, but, matter is ALL from the big bang, and that can be dated, so matter did not exist for ever.
    Sound pretty dogmatic and self acrediting.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    D wiltshire;

    I do not want to get into a arguement with you. You were rude, you said I had no solid facts, you CAPS LOCKED, so either you have poor social skills netwise and were rude by mistake (I notice you don't apologise... ), or you were deliberately being rude. Please save your proverbs about finger pointing; you claim you thought I was rude, pity you didn't bother calling me on it and just decided to be rude back.

    When I said 'High School or sophomore', I was not indicating any doubt as to you finishing High School, but rather indicating I did not know where they cover this stuff in the US education system, whether it is covered in High Schools, or whether it is stuff covered in First Year at College. You obviously made some assumptions there that were wrong, and what's more seem to imply I am two-faced (saying 'without being rude' and then being rude would be two-faced).

    Sorry if you think I am haughty, but hell, I think you're rude, so we'll just have to live with what we both think are the others misconceptions. The minute I thought you were being rude, I called you on it. Maybe that demonstrates the fact I wasn't being rude, or do you think I am that big a hypocrite?

    You then take my description of a singularity and say I'm being dogmatic. You ask questions and snipe at the replies. How... well, words fail me... Sorry if an answer to a question sounds dogmatic to you, we don't all go round saying 'BUT WHY' or 'WHAT DOES THAT MEAN', some of us FIND OUT WHY. That way we can answer questions rather than asking them, or ask (BIG HINT HERE) better questions. Ooops. CAPS LOCK keeps slipping on. Funny how rudeness is catching, isn't it?

    Then you completely twist this sentence;

    Now, my level of understanding of the above physics is slightly better than your understanding of evolution I'd say, but I fully admit that's a vert layperson explination, so any one who can do better I salute and open the floor to, but, matter is ALL from the big bang, and that can be dated, so matter did not exist for ever.
    You say this "Sound pretty dogmatic and self acrediting." I said, based on the fact you know virtually nothing about evolution, that I know slightly more about physics than you do about evolution. Wow, I am SO vain, saying I know slightly more than someone who knows virtually nothing.

    Oh by-the-way, that was SARCASM. Ooops... more CAPS LOCK, see how annoying it is?

    I also say that my explaination was a very layperson explination, as I am not a graduate in Physics, and that anyone who can do better can feel free. More of my vanity I suppose. I thought I was saying 'I can't explain this that brilliantly, jump in if you can do better'. Yet again you doubt me and cast aspertions upon my character without cause.

    And yet agin, more accusations about being 'pretty dogmatic'. What IS your problem? You seem incapable of accepting that it is possible to know things with a high degree of certainty. If stating something with certainty because of what you know about that thing is dogmatic, well excuse me. Shit smells bad; dogmatic! Some people must like it. Horses have four legs; dogmatic! Some lose legs.

    Maybe you'd rather we preface EVERY sentence with 'the current theories are' or some such. Well, some small scale DNA surveys have revealed that maybe upto 30% of people are actaully not fathered by their father, but by someone else. That might be just those surveys as it's not like they've done all the population. But maybe everyone should start saying 'this is probably my father' when they introduce him, unless they have had a DNA test to prove it, just so YOU DON'T CALL THEM DOGMATIC!

    ARGH!

    Notice you have not at any point accepted loads of well-intentioned people (that includes me despite your bad-mouthing me) pointing out that, maybe, just maybe, you need to read a book or two so you have a better basic understanding of the Sciences. You just repeat the uncontested fact you have a right to ask questions.

    No one ever said you didn't. What some people have said is that maybe you'd be asking better, different questions if you knew more. And I suppose it is everyone elses' fault you are so intransigent? Or that some of your questions are pretty basic?

    You say elsewhere that you are not trying to upset anyone, yet, as I said before, you smell more like a troll everyday. You are like someone who has never cut a piece of wood with a saw attacking the finer details of cabinet making.

    In England we have a comedy program with a bumptious old fool who says 'You don't want to do it like that, you want to do it like this', before making it abundently clear he doesn't know what he's talking about. You are dangerously close to being that man.

    I think maybe the problem here is that you have read enough to realise sub-conciously that god probably doesn't exist. But you are so pre-disposed to belief in god that you are fighting tooth and nail despite the facts that are already in your head. It's called cognotive dissonance, but I am sure you will just think I am being dogmatic and haughty by saying that.

    I don't expect you to apologise for being rude; if you sincerely thought I was being rude, then you being rude back is no big thing. But, now I have explained myself, maybe we can get on better. If you don't doubt my motives, maybe I won't doubt yours.

    If someone knew more about something than you, wouldn't you look stupid if you accused them of being dogmatic everytime they tried to teach you something?

    edited for a major typo, but sod the little ones, I'm off home
  • mommy
    mommy

    D,
    Just popping my head back in here for a sec. Abaddon did a wonderful job, trying to help you understand something. Personally I would not have put that much effort into it. You then attack the messenger and didn't even discuss anything he said, just the way he said it. I gave you links, which you bookmarked for later use. I was wondering if you had a chance to look at them yet?

    It is clear that in the beginning of this post you had not done much research on the theory of evolution. I am a laymen as well, and get mixed up when it comes to the technical terms. I have often asked more knowledgable ones questions I could not answer myself, or ones that stumped me. I can assure you though that I would have recieved the same response if I had asked in the same way you did.

    I agree with Abaddon when he commented that as a JW we were used to being spoon fed info broken down for us, not giving us a chance to do our own research. I happen to be lazy when it comes to research, but I know enough not to argue or demand another to divulge all of their knowledge without doing a bit of research myself. Due to the fact that several people have told you to do your own research, then come back and discuss, doesn't this tell you something? You don't have the basic info on evolution to even begin discussing it. It is one thing to ask for help but when you demand it, well then people aren't really willing to hand it over.
    wendy

    Blind faith can justify anything.~Richard Dawkins

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Abbadon,

    Apology accepted.

    I'm sorry too.

    But remember people that think different than you are not stupid.
    As for research I've done it and still do.
    My ass isn't too fat.Height5'7" 185lbs

    I have my own business and work much overtime.

    While I do read what scientist say, I think some times they get carried away in there assumptions.
    While I apreciate facts I gloss over what I concider far out assumptions.
    I hope you enjoyed our little sparring.
    Have a nice evening.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?

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