It Is Very Cruel of God....

by AllTimeJeff 46 Replies latest watchtower bible

LtCmd.Lore

The cop might.
Thank you.
But does God owe you a damned thing?
Yes.
Now answer my question.
Okay: Please describe a world in which there is no suffering or possibility of suffering .
This would only be possible if a God existed.
An omnipotent deity is the ONLY one capable of making this happen, which is EXACTLY why I think he owes us. If you are the ONLY one able to fix a problem, then you are morally obligated to do so:
Here's how he would do it: Whenever someone begins to do something harmful, god would stop them....... And that's the end of it.
How would we then behave?
However we wish. And if you wish to cause harm, then you can go ahead and try, (only to be stopped of course.)
This is not a violation of free will. Either a god can stop you from hurting others, or a policeman can stop you from hurting others. Either way, you can TRY whatever you want, but you will not necessarily be able to succeed.
Would we be good?
That's up to you.
But if you are NOT, then you will suffer the consequences. Just like you do under ANY legal system.
If you try to commit a crime, we have law enforcement to stop you.
God would make a MUCH better law enforcer.
Self-giving?
That's also up to you.
IF not, people might start to dislike you, so you will probably be more inclined to be self-giving.
Why bother, since nobody needs anything, physically, mentally, emotionally?
"Why not?" would be a better question.
What's that got to do with anything?
Personally I DON'T need anything physically, mentally or emotionally at this particular moment. But I'm having fun just having this conversation. So it's not like my life is without meaning just because I'm satisfied...
Or would we be the worst kind of selfish pigs?
You could if you WANT, but then people would probably dislike you, so you would be more inclined to be nice.
How would that world be like?
Sounds pretty cool to me.
Would we posess a will?
Of course!
You aren't allowed to go on rampant killing sprees NOW, but you still have a will right? So why would that change if it was God that was preventing you from harming people instead of the government?
Now my next question:
When a human lets somebody drown right in front of him, you think he's a jerk!
If a human lets a woman get raped right in front of him, you think he's a jerk!
But if god allows these things, you don't get angry... Why not?
Lore - What.Would.Satan.Do?
BurnTheShips

Here's how he would do it: Whenever someone begins to do something harmful, god would stop them....... And that's the end of it.
How?
Your policeman analogy breaks down. You or I wanted to go on a shooting rampage at the local mall, I could easily do it. No one could stop me-or you. There would be consequences however. I would suffer the consequences of my wrongdoing. Cruel!
This is not a violation of free will. Either a god can stop you from hurting others, or a policeman can stop you from hurting others. Either way, you can TRY whatever you want, but you will not necessarily be able to succeed.
How is this not a violation of free will if I am prevented from acting? That is a violation by definition!
But if you are NOT, then you will suffer the consequences. Just like you do under ANY legal system.
Consquences=suffering. Or do you think criminals enjoy going to jail? Your owt problem (unlike the OP) seems not to be suffering, but enforcement. There is enforcement, it just seems like it is put off to us short-timers. There is an accounting.
IF not, people might start to dislike you, so you will probably be more inclined to be self-giving.
A lot of the suffering in the world is caused by dislike, hatred. I think you need to think this one through a bit more Lore.
Burn
BurnTheShips

When a human lets somebody drown right in front of him, you think he's a jerk!
If a human lets a woman get raped right in front of him, you think he's a jerk!
But if god allows these things, you don't get angry... Why not?
I can understand all of the humans motives in either of the above situations, or at least I think I can. Therefore I have a basis to judge the human.
In the case of God, I do not have that basis. All things in the end are turned to good.
The land seemed full of creaking and cracking and sly noises, but there was no sound of voice or of foot. Far above the Ephel Duath in the West the night-sky was still dim and pale. There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Tower was only a small and passing thing: there was a light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach. His song in the Tower had been defiance rather than hope; for then he was thinking of himself. Now, for a moment, his own fate, and even his master’s, ceased to trouble him. He crawled back into the brambles and laid himself by Frodo’s side, and putting away all fear he cast himself to sleep.
Burn
LtCmd.Lore

Here's how he would do it: Whenever someone begins to do something harmful, god would stop them....... And that's the end of it.
How?
Take your pick: Kill you painlessly, put up a forcefield around the victim, wipe your brain of the desire to continue your plan of evil, teleport you to a uninhabited area... It's not that difficult to imagine.
Your policeman analogy breaks down. You or I wanted to go on a shooting rampage at the local mall, I could easily do it. No one could stop me-or you. There would be consequences however. I would suffer the consequences of my wrongdoing. Cruel!
I have no idea what you're getting at. Honestly... Do you want me to come up with a painless punishment or what? Okay, lets assume that you want to go on a killing spree in the mall. God could painlessly teleport you to a painless island in the middle of a painlessly uninhabited beach where you can painlessly eat fruit and drink coconut milk without getting painful indigestion, far away from any other person. There, a perfect way to prevent you from causing any pain... When you have OMNIPOTENCE in the hypothetical scenarios, it's not that difficult. Anyway, I have no objection to CRIMINALS experiencing pain, in order to prevent them from causing trouble, that's not cruel, that's justice. INJUSTICE, and CRUELTY, is when you allow the criminal to get away scot free, while the innocent ones suffer. For instance God letting a woman get raped and not doing anything. = Cruel. God punishing the rapist and saving the woman. = Justice. Please explain what part of that you don't get!
This is not a violation of free will. Either a god can stop you from hurting others, or a policeman can stop you from hurting others. Either way, you can TRY whatever you want, but you will not necessarily be able to succeed.
How is this not a violation of free will if I am prevented from acting? That is a violation by definition!
? How does that violate your free will? You may WANT to fly, but you are not capable of it. Does that meen you have no free will? You may WANT to commit a crime, but you are not capable of it. Does that meen you have no free will?
But if you are NOT, then you will suffer the consequences. Just like you do under ANY legal system.
Consquences=suffering. Or do you think criminals enjoy going to jail? Your owt problem (unlike the OP) seems not to be suffering, but enforcement. There is enforcement, it just seems like it is put off to us short-timers. There is an accounting.
I don't know what a short-timer is... But the consequences don't have to involve suffering. Consequences != Suffering. Consequences = "A phenomenon that follows and is caused by some previous phenomenon." Suffering = "A state of acute pain" They are not related.
IF not, people might start to dislike you, so you will probably be more inclined to be self-giving.
A lot of the suffering in the world is caused by dislike, hatred. I think you need to think this one through a bit more Lore.
No, a lot of the suffering in the world is caused by the RESULTS of dislike and hatred. Results that, under the hypothetical god-rule scenerio, would not take place. I think you need to think this one through a bit more Burn. Or better yet, get to the point. Lore
LtCmd.Lore

I can understand all of the humans motives in either of the above situations, or at least I think I can. Therefore I have a basis to judge the human.
In the case of God, I do not have that basis.
So therefore you give him a get-out-of-jail-free card?
By your own admission, you don't understand his reasoning.
So how are you in ANY position to claim that he's good? You say you can't judge god, and yet you judge him to be good.
If we don't know his reasons, then all we have to go by are his results, and the results suck. Therefore it's safe to assume that God is cruel.
The best you can possibly say is: "I don't understand god, so therefore I don't know if god is good or bad."
As you say, you do NOT have a basis to judge him. So stop claiming that he's good.
Watkins

Well, i don't know... i think some men are cruel, from my first-hand experience. I can't explain why i believe some of the things i believe, but that's the nature of mere belief i guess.
But i have a question - i thought 'atheist' was the term for a person who doesn't believe in the exisitence of God - and 'agnostic' was the term for a person who does believe in the existence of a 'higher power', but believes that 'higher power' is far-removed and does not directly affect humanity or life on the planet.
You said you were 'agnostic' but went on to explain your unbelief in a cruel god, so i was just wondering.
watkins
BurnTheShips

Anyway, I have no objection to CRIMINALS experiencing pain, in order to prevent them from causing trouble, that's not cruel, that's justice. INJUSTICE, and CRUELTY, is when you allow the criminal to get away scot free, while the innocent ones suffer. For instance God letting a woman get raped and not doing anything. = Cruel. God punishing the rapist and saving the woman. = Justice. Please explain what part of that you don't get!
I totally get it. I don't think you do. You have no objection to CRIMINALS feeling pain. Well, we are all "criminals". We all sin and fall short. You didn't ever do anything wrong in your life Lore? Like I said before, God punishes the rapist. "The mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly small"
You may WANT to fly, but you are not capable of it. Does that meen you have no free will? You may WANT to commit a crime, but you are not capable of it. Does that meen you have no free will?
OK. You are confusing two things here. I will be more specific. The free will I am referring to is moral agency. We are free moral agents, free to do as we see fit. Moral law is not the same thing as the laws of physics. We are free to do what we will within physical constraints.
Consequences != Suffering. Consequences = "A phenomenon that follows and is caused by some previous phenomenon."
So, if the consequence of a lifetime of smoking is cancer, or the consequence of promiscuous sex with many partners is a painful or life threatening STD, there is no suffering? Your equation does not follow. Burn
BurnTheShips

So therefore you give him a get-out-of-jail-free card?
I didn't know I had the power to put him in jail. LOL.
By your own admission, you don't understand his reasoning .
By my own admission, yes. Not all of it anyways. And not in this life either. But I can harmonize my lack of understanding about some things and the fact that He is Good. I am O.K. about not knowing everything.
So how are you in ANY position to claim that he's good? You say you can't judge god, and yet you judge him to be good.
I don't judge him to be good. I know he is!
The best you can possibly say is: "I don't understand god, so therefore I don't know if god is good or bad."
You clearly are claiming he is cruel, as the OP has. Yet you want me to make no claim at all? Silly rabbit.
As you say, you do NOT have a basis to judge him. So stop claiming that he's good.
And do what, accept your alternative? If God does not exist, then all of our existence, including our suffering and pain, has no value, no purpose and no goal.
If God is not omnipotent, then we have no hope that our suffering will ever be brought to an end.
If God is cruel, then to our suffering and despair we must add the spectre of divine sadism.
Each of these alternatives is at least as fraught with problems as the Christian one, so you have simply exchanged one answer you don't like (that there is a God and that he is Good) for one of the others which is equally unpleasant-more so actually. You have not solved the problem of pain, you merely refuse to solve it.*
To accept your argument would burden my pain and suffering with the much greater additional weight of hopelessness.
I maintain my claim.
Burn
*(The very fact that you can maintain that God is cruel based on an objective external standard exposes the weakness of your position. Indeed in your world "good" becomes merely a social convention, or an evolutionary process, or the opinion of the majority, or what those in charge declare it to be. There can be no absolute, eternal value such as "good". In one set of circumstances good might be the eating of one's enemies. In another one it may be the loving instead. "Good" as a purely evolutionary process could include killing off unproductive, less than optimal humans like the physically and mentally handicapped. If you want to borrow the Christian definition of Good as something absolute and eternal, something which you are using even to judge God, then you can't reject the Christian explanation of suffering which is consistent with such ideas.)
Sad emo

Thiests like to portray their god as who they want him to be.
So do atheists, it would appear!
Who would you find to blame for all the crap if God doesn't exist? (Hypothetical question for personal thought - no need to answer here or your original topic will be dragged off course)
R.Crusoe

If noone believed in God it does not mean people would want to murder each other for the sake of it. Many people have however murdered each other for the sake of belief in God.
Whether God exists or is cruel does not depend upon the justice of humanity or whether someone unjustly suffers or dies. The humans who invent the notion that God must exist to explain the emotions we feel respecting pain and suffering and injustice, at the same time take pleasure from seeing a wrongdoer suffer. A perfect God would take no pleasure from seeing others suffer. A perfect human would take no pleasure from seeing another suffer no matter how misaligned. It would simply be a sad situation that a human got into a situation where they wanted to impose suffering on others to the degree that they do. We can see this going on in the world right now . It is a sad reflection of humanity.

It Is Very Cruel of God....

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