It Is Very Cruel of God....

by AllTimeJeff 46 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  AllTimeJeff

  Burn, I am glad you responded. As usual, semantics is not the strong point of thiests, but here goes.....

  I wrote that from the premise of a person who would be considering gods existence. Thus, when I wrote "God is cruel" I wrote it not because I believe he exists, but to prove a point to thiests. If they are right, God has much to answer for, as my mini-essay described.

  If God exists, then he did abandon man. Absolutely true! Where is he? Why isn't he doing something about the many servere problems on earth?

  He created us with urges for food, material shelter and sex, yet says that beyond a certain point to want these things is sinful, meriting punishment and death. It would have been much simpler to not create us to crave things he will destroy us for. But supposedly, god didn't.

  The freedom to choose is the freedom to choose wrongly. Do you obey the speed limit AllTimeJeff? Why? Can your car go faster?

  If god exists, he is described as being very interested in our use of the genitals and where one sticks them. I am not arguing for free love, but I am arguing against judging someone arbitrarily on what is essentially personal behavior that harms no one. And as for your "apples to oranges" comparison of speeding, I would happily argue that speeding recklessly does much more harm to the public at large then what two educated consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom. You can't argue against the hate mongering judgementalism of the bible.

  Do you pretend to know what that mother thinks about these things? I don't. She might be closer to God than I will ever be.

  Thats bold, my friend. You assume that they are close to god because you are a thiest. I have seen the suffering, I can tell you that god is questioned at worst and denied at best. I can tell you that lives are ruined, and in no way can their experiences bring them closer to god. Do you really think that this mother says "I know I was raped and had this baby, who has never had adequate food and medicine a day in his life. I am so glad that god will take this baby from me once he is dead." Death is a relief to these people, not that they want to die, they just have no hope.

  God supposedly hates homosexuals. He will destroy people of other faiths who have no choice but to serve god as their culture and enviorenment portrayed him. Billions will die as a result of the accident of their birth. He hates any disagreement at all, and esp hates a lack of faith. (what thinking people call credulity)

  I do not even know where to start with this statement, honestly. I sounds like your only understanding of Christianity is what you learned in the Watchtower.

  Really? Have you ever listened to Fallwell and Robertson, or radio evangilists on a weekend drive? Is it the official Catholic teaching that all religions not Catholic are taking their followers to Satan? Many religions teach similar things. That is very naieve to imply otherwise sir. They say worse stuff then this! And if god exists, he does condemn people in other lands to death, because they are not taught to believe in "Christ". They can't! Allah or death you know..... And I am sure it is hard to know where to start with that statement, because it is 100% logical and reasonable.
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  AllTimeJeff

  If a cop stands idly by and lets someone rape and/or kill your wife or daughter, don't you think that cop owes you an apology? Even if he's not the 'direct cause'?

  Lets go on step further, as practically all thiests describe god as their "heavenly father". What would a parent be charged with for allowing their children to play with guns and shoot each other, and one dies?

  Should it be a lesser standard with god?
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  LtCmd.Lore

  Lore.

  Please describe a world in which there is no suffering or possibility of suffering . Essentially, we can't be hurt and we can't hurt anybody else.

  I'm not going to answer your questions if you are just going to avoid mine. First answer: If a cop stands idly by and lets someone rape and/or kill your wife or daughter, don't you think that cop owes you an apology? Even if he's not the 'direct cause'?

  Answer that truthfully and I promise I'll get back to the questions you just asked.
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  AllTimeJeff

  Maybe world with even a great deal of suffering might be better on balance than a world without it if the world that has suffering also has a great deal of pleasure aloong with it. Some might even maintain that suffering makes pleasure even better, and thus be required for the state of affairs with the most good.
  
  Can you demonstrate that we do not live in such a world?

  What kind of arguement is this? Traditional thiestic theological hogwash. First of all, the bible doesn't describe a scenario like this, insofar as the afterlife in practically all religions is described as a "suffering free" zone. So we can reasonably assume that the world is not better off due to the existence of suffering.

  Can I demonstrate what? Huh? Human misery by the hundreds of millions, but instead, lets try to wrap our mind around a thiestic question about the state of the world that doesn't describe our world, there is no evidence for anyway, but will make thiests feel better? I would rather make some inroads on suffering then try to answer this made up question that is essentially taking a road trip on a mental cul de sac.
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  atypical

  "Maybe world with even a great deal of suffering might be better on balance than a world without it if the world that has suffering also has a great deal of pleasure aloong with it. Some might even maintain that suffering makes pleasure even better, and thus be required for the state of affairs with the most good.
  
  Can you demonstrate that we do not live in such a world?"

  So, do we need crack babies and starving children to help appreciate our healthy ones? Do we need some children to endure molestation and horrific abuse so that we can draw a nice contrast with the children who make it through unscathed? What type of pleasure is made better by murder, rape, incest, starvation, poverty, etc.? That of the molestor, the murderer, the abuser, and the thief?
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  BurnTheShips

  As usual, semantics is not the strong point of thiests

  Thanks-I think. I guess such lights as Agustine, Aquinas, Barth, and Plantinga have also had their "semantics issues".

  but to prove a point to thiests.

  Well, its good to see you are acting out of evangelistic fervor and not because of a personal problem.

  If God exists, then he did abandon man. Absolutely true!

  Well it is good to see your mind is made up! Reason will never convince someone out of a postition he came to hold without reason.

  Where is he? Why isn't he doing something about the many servere problems on earth?

  He is near to each and every one of us. He took the form of a lowly man and suffered a death on the Cross to bind evil and give us the hope of escaping suffering.

  If god exists, he is described as being very interested in our use of the genitals and where one sticks them. I am not arguing for free love, but I am arguing against judging someone arbitrarily on what is essentially personal behavior that harms no one.

  Well that is your judgement isn't it? You are judging the judging, right? My baby will cry and rage if I arbitrarily remove the pretty shiny object in his hands! He doesn't know that a butcher's knife is dangerous! I am very interested in his use of his hands and where he sticks them. The results could be bad.

  I have seen the suffering, I can tell you that god is questioned at worst and denied at best. I can tell you that lives are ruined, and in no way can their experiences bring them closer to god. Do you really think that this mother says "I know I was raped and had this baby, who has never had adequate food and medicine a day in his life. I am so glad that god will take this baby from me once he is dead." Death is a relief to these people, not that they want to die, they just have no hope.

  Unfortunately, you are not the only one to have seen suffering. I have heard of sufferers that have been with God to the end. The history books are littered with the accounts of martyrs that bore their pain to the end. For those that have faith, suffering is redemptive. For those without, it is a dark, hopeless hell.

  Really? Have you ever listened to Fallwell and Robertson, or radio evangilists on a weekend drive? Is it the official Catholic teaching that all religions not Catholic are taking their followers to Satan?

  I don't listen to those guys, for the very reasons your good person finds them offensive. FYI, it is not the official Catholic position that all religions are taking their followers to Satan. Far from it. Please inform yourself about other religions.

  They say worse stuff then this! And if god exists, he does condemn people in other lands to death, because they are not taught to believe in "Christ". They can't! Allah or death you know..... And I am sure it is hard to know where to start with that statement, because it is 100% logical and reasonable.

  When you are 100% percent convinced of your logic and reason why reason with you? Regardless, I do not believe that other people in other lands are condemned to death because they have not heard of Christ. And the majority of Christians agree with me. Unfortunately, all most people see are the "outliars" and they then build a statistical model based on the bad data. Go to good sources for your info about what Christians believe. The links above I provided can help point you in the right direction.

  Burn
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  BurnTheShips

  It was a question to stimulate thought. Not an assertion in any way.

  Burn
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  BurnTheShips

  If a cop stands idly by and lets someone rape and/or kill your wife or daughter, don't you think that cop owes you an apology? Even if he's not the 'direct cause'?

  The cop might. But does God owe you a damned thing?

  Now answer my question.

  Burn
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  BurnTheShips

  Should it be a lesser standard with god?

  So you are setting God's standards?

  Where do you live so I know where to turn for prostration?

  Burn
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  R.Crusoe

  I propose that religious dogma induces some individuals to commit crime. It fertilises in them an ever growing feeling of an overpowering emotion of being condemned to eternal torment and rejection, often for minor details such as 'In so much as you think it you do it' scripture. Any individual who fully believes such a statement will torture their every human feeling with this ridiculous filter of experience. It will conflict internally with their being a human being. Eventually a large proportion of true believers can only do one thing - accept their own damnation under the all too great burden of mind controlling dogma. They may burst and just do whateva for the hell of it because they have been made to feel utterly rejected anyhow. If guardians promote similar dogma life is a psychologically depressing void.

  All they really needed was love and acceptance for who they are as an individual. Humans don't need religion - they need loving people around them free of dogma and more interested in enjoying life and learning about the good things in world around them to stimulate their minds. Keep love in this mix and I feel sure it will transcend religious ideology for this generation and the ones to come.

  Religion has taken the concept of God and used it to batter peoples free will and love into shredded pulp running red with their whole life force!

  It attempts to impose loving family values but fails with the burden of psychology which displaces any love for a creator. It enforces the notion of fear and measures it as a currency of much higher value than that of love without any due consideration for the inevitable disaster of such a long term investment. It is the same the world over - short term gains are too tempting!!