Self Deceit and Faith.

by hillary_step 208 Replies latest jw friends

  • 5go
    5go
    Belief in God or having faith is also subject to numerous evidence lines of which evolution is but a small part. I knew nothing about evolution as my faith in God began to unravel. Evolution is just a small part of the mountain of evidence which proves to us that God is not real.There are many lines of evidence which point to the objective facts in the matter of God's reality. If the Bible is God's word then it contains many falsifying facts. The God-tantrums of the Old Testiment provide ample evidence which points us away from concluding that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and most assuridly not merciful. If God presents Himself in His own inspired book as a petty genocidal maniac then it becomes difficult to believe He would possess the wisdom and higher intelligence required to create a Universe. It certainly makes one pause to think about His qualifications to be God in the first place.

    This is one thing I wish theist would at least acknowledge, though I may agree a god(s) exist. Your theology, and ideas of god are still disproven with all the evidence out there. If god created life he used natural laws to do it which automatically debunks the bible which didn't even get close in it's account of creation.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Lelolaia, as always, a beautiful wealth reasoned post.

    Do you think that, in human affairs, it always comes down to subjectivity?

    Cheers,

    Burn

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    BA,

    Okay, I think you agree with me that dinosaurs are a different kind to birds.

    There is no proof that the sparrow descended from the archaeopteryx

    You're right. It's not known if it was the ancestor to ALL modern birds. In fact, the velociraptor has been considered an ancestor of birds too.

    In September, scientists announced that they've found evidence of quill knobs on velociraptor fossils--places where feathers were attached to the animal's bone, just as they are on many birds. Says scientist Alan Turner, "This is something we'd long suspected, but no one had been able to prove. Finding quill knobs on velociraptor, though, means that it definitely had feathers."

    Above taken from http://knowledgenews.net/moxie/todaysknowledge/velociraptor-killer-turkey.shtml Plenty more sources available from more scientific sites.

    From wiki:

    Despite its small size, broad wings, and ability to fly, Archaeopteryx has more in common with small theropoddinosaurs than it does with modern birds. In particular, it shares the following features with the deinonychosaurs (dromaeosaurs and troodontids): jaws with sharp teeth, three fingers with claws, a long bony tail, hyperextensible second toes ("killing claw"), feathers (which also suggest homeothermy), and various skeletal features.

    The features above make Archaeopteryx the first clear candidate for a transitional fossil between dinosaurs and birds

    --------------

    Archaeopteryx

    feathers, although less documented than its other features, were similar in structure and design to modern-day bird feathers.However, despite the presence of numerous avian features, Archaeopteryx had many theropod dinosaur characteristics. Unlike modern birds, Archaeopteryx had small teeth as well as a long bony tail, features which Archaeopteryx shared with other dinosaurs of the time.

    Because it displays a number of features common to both birds and dinosaurs, Archaeopteryx has often been considered a link between them—possibly the first bird in its change from a land dweller to a bird

    it preserves a number of avian features, such as a wishbone, flight feathers, wings and a partially reversed first toe, and a number of dinosaur and theropod features. For instance, it has a long ascending process of the ankle bone, interdental plates, an obturator process of the ischium , and long chevrons in the tail. In particular, Ostrom found that Archaeopteryx was remarkably similar to the theropod family Dromaeosauridae

    -------------

    (Can't turn off this blue now, grr!)

    Now if the

    Archaeopteryx was still around today it wouldn't be considered a transitional fossil. But using dating methods, we know it was around between the time of its dinosaur ancestors and birds as we know them today. The way fossils are lined up is based on when they come from. Lining them up in this way we can see the changes in certain features over time.

    Burn,

    Sounds to me like you are putting faith in your own senses Sero. are you sure they are not deceiving you?

    I wouldn't be proving someone appreciated me, I'd be believing it based on good reasoning. Leaving proof for God aside, there's not even one good reason to believe in him. I'd also be open to change. If it was found my senses were wrong (beyond the limited capacity we know them to have) then there would be good reason to rethink the matter. Faith just isn't as open to new data.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    Your theology, and ideas of god are still disproven with all the evidence out there. If god created life he used natural laws to do it which automatically debunks the bible which didn't even get close in it's account of creation.

    Hi 5go.

    Which theology in particular 5go? I don't think "my" theology is disproven, but maybe you meant unproven?

    The Bible does not appear to me to get close to what we currently "know" about the origins. I think my point is that it was dealt with in a manner consistent with the knowledge of people of that time while pointing to certain truths that are still valid.

    As for the poster you respond to,

    If the Bible is God's word then it contains many falsifying facts.

    to channel Leolaia (and NOT to speak for her), I will reiterate that it describes things according to the subjectivites of the period in which it was composed. I take this of a post I made some time ago:

    The account of creation in Genesis was described according to the reality of the people of that time and place, if God were to inspire such a thing today I am sure it would be in today's language and cosmology. And if it were in today's terms, how do you think it would look to our descendants 3000 years hence at the current rate of progress? Pretty anachronistic! That is not to say it was a metaphor, it describes real events that really happened, but described in a manner that the people of that time would grasp. It is the same when we explain something to a small child today. We use forms they can understand while conveying the essence of what we are communicating to them.

    Luke: Obi-Wan.
    [Obi-Wan's spirit approaches Luke]
    Luke: Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father.
    Obi-Wan: Your father... was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and BECAME Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was TRUE... from a certain point of view.
    Luke: A certain point of view?
    Obi-Wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...
    [sits down]
    Obi-Wan: depend greatly on our own point of view. Anakin was a good friend.

    Either way, The Christian faith is not a religion of the book. Christianity is the religion of the Word of God, not a written and mute word, but an incarnate and living being. The book is about the faith and the revelation, not the faith itself or the revelation itself.

    Ubi Amor, Ibi Oculus

    Burn

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    greendawn

    I recall Serotonin strongly objected in one of his PMs, to me calling evolution a process based on blind chance but that's what it is in the end natural selection may not be blind chance but the creation of new genes through mutation which is what really creates new traits and cumulatively over time new species according to evolutionary theory, sorry Serotonin but, it is most certainly a random process.

    Yes, random mutation in one or a few animals in the species is chance. However, whether it changes an entire species or not (evolution) is not chance, it depends on whether or not the random mutation helps it survive or not.

    The random mutations don't directly change the whole species. If a few humans were born with an extra hand that may be considered chance, but if every human came to evolve to have this extra hand, that would be based on whether it was beneficial for us and gave us an edge over two handed humans.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    Burn,

    The account of creation in Genesis was described according to the reality of the people of that time and place, if God were to inspire such a thing today I am sure it would be in today's language and cosmology. And if it were in today's terms, how do you think it would look to our descendants 3000 years hence at the current rate of progress? Pretty anachronistic! That is not to say it was a metaphor, it describes real events that really happened, but described in a manner that the people of that time would grasp. It is the same when we explain something to a small child today. We use forms they can understand while conveying the essence of what we are communicating to them.

    Hi, did you ever get to see this thread:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/146701/1.ashx

    Do you think it is convincing?

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    Do you think it is convincing?

    I think it is fantastic! It's quite floored me.

    I see very clear parallels with Biblical version.

    I find the OM/Logos parallel fascinating. I never noticed it before.

    Thanks,

    Burn

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    A Christian sees a lot of positive things in what he believes to be the creation of God, despite a superficial similarity man is a world apart from animals with the ability to stand upright, speak, have a unique individual face and voice, think, reason, create, and have spiritual aspirations.

    Why would evolution bestow on man all these things that are superfluous to survival plus delicious food, sex, the ability to understand, compose and enjoy music, breathtaking scenery, and the art of nature such as the beautiful colours/shapes of butterflies and flowers?

    A Christian would also say that since the gospel went out man has the option to escape from his misery but is not taking it.

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    Hi Seratonin: Yes, dad's appreciation is "more provable" than faith in a deity (though not to certainty). I can open the box on my dad's appreciation and review some evidence, at least!

    BTW, that analogy is not meant as a support of a belief in God - it is meant as a support of the unprovable.

    Hi Hillary: Widening the inquiry does change things a bit. Assigning characteristics (or roles) to a God begins begging for evidence to support the claim. As for proving or disproving whether dad appreciates voideater, well - even if I ask him, he may lie. I cannot prove it - though I can (as seratonin alludes) come to an answer through reasoning, based on external events that are verifiable by others.

    But dad's appreciation really cannot be proved. It's a description of his internal experience. Only he knows the answer. Even if he tells me one way or the other, it's an act of faith that he's telling the truth.

    We have no evidence that God has ever given, or been able to give a direct answer to any person asking such a question.

    100% agreement. My only point is that a lack of evidence can only lead to a reasonable conclusion - but not a proof of misconception. So, for the purposes of faith equating to self-deceit, the jury is still out as far as I can see.

    This God, loves me. This God created me. This God provides me with my wants. This God answers my prayers. This God looked after a book called the Bible to make sure it spoke truth to me. This God looks after the orbit of the sun so that it brings me life.

    100% agreement. My evidence says, "God abandoned me". "God denied me basic needs". "God ignored my prayers". "God introduced massive inconsistencies into the Bible and threw a veil over the translating of His work". "God picked an orbit of the sun, out of many he could have; he chose an axis of the Earth that leaves large sections uncomfortable or uninhabitable".

    I agree that the BAs of the board have yet to bring forth evidence that sways me (complexity of the universe only proves that the universe is complex; beauty of the universe only proves our capacity to experience beauty). But I also cannot equate faith with self-deception - using the same proof. Faith may be unprovable, and unreasonable, and illogical, but lack of verifiability may not make it untrue.

    You see, the concept of a God may not require self-deception, but all appendages applied to this concept do. They require that a person go further than a provable/unprovable concept.

    Hmm...maybe I disagree. All of these things are debatable. They lack specific proofs. That just doesn't equate to self-deception to me. There's lots of things we choose to believe in, sometimes to a point of certainty, that are not provable.

    I think it was Helen Keller is attributed with saying security is an illusion; perhaps objective certainty is as well.

    I have faith in string theory.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk
    Why would evolution bestow on man all these things that are superfluous to survival plus delicious food, sex, the ability to understand, compose and enjoy music, breathtaking scenery, and the art of nature such as the beautiful colours/shapes of butterflies and flowers?

    Is the finding of food delicious superfluous to our survival?

    Not at all.

    If it enhances nourishment, and thus perpetuates the life of the organism and in turn the species, it's only to be expected that we would evolve to find food to be "tasty" and non-alimentary materials "not-so-tasty".

    Sex being "pleasurable"?

    Same mechanism.

    Art appreciation, on the other hand, is highly subjective and varies from culture to culture.

    Appreciation of nature doesn't have to be intrinsic to our survival, but it quite possibly is.

    Perhaps a deep-seated understanding that we are all part of the same Universe causes us to instinctively care for our natural environment.

    Nothing supernatural about that realization. It's purely naturalistic.

    Though some have chosen to disregard the importance of the natural world we exist and thrive in, there is certainly a universal consciousness or awareness that points to that course as counter-productive.

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