WT Comments (Dec 3-9 ORAL SEX) FEATURING RICHIE RICH (page 6)

JWdaughter

Excellent commentary. I never read the WT comments before, but I had to since Richie wrote 'em.

Q: "Over time, what should happen to our conscience?" A: It should be surgically removed, and replaced with a huge stack of magazines. Did you notice it says "our conscience", singular, not "our consciences", plural? Because JW's are only supposed to have one conscience for all seven million plus of them.

Mr Ben

Read between the ~~sheets~~ lines people...

Want oral sex? But your marriage partner will turn you in, just as we have advised her to do? Elders will disfellowship you from her sole testimoney despite the 2 witness rule, again at our direction? No problem! Can't you work out what we are trying to tell you, and to whom we are talking? The 2 witness rule will only be applied if you do this to children, in which case we will protect you.

More GO! signs for JW molesters. Seriously, say it isn't so. The no oral sex between marriage mates is a smokescreen to make them look puritanical, wheras the real message is.........? I'll leave the rest to you.

Get your children out of this monstrous organisation!

Mr Ben

jgnat

I'm adding my JW husband's comment. He (rightly) points out that the article does not specifically forbid oral sex between married couples. The example given is of oral sex outside of the marriage bond.

*phew* goes the wife.

blondie

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Questions

FromReaders

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Recentlyinthenewswasacourtdecisionrulingthatoralcopulationbyadultsisnolongerpunishablebylawinacertainstate.WouldsuchpracticethereforebesolelyamatterforindividualconscienceifengagedinbyaChristiancouplewithinthemarriagearrangement?—U.S.A.

It is not the purpose of this magazine to discuss all the intimate aspects of marital relations. Nonetheless, practices like those involved in this court case have become quite common and have received considerable publicity. Even young children in certain schools are being informed of these things in sex education courses. We would therefore be remiss as regards our responsibility if we held back Scriptural counsel that could aid sincere Christians in their efforts to follow a course of purity calling forth the Creator’s blessing. Unusual sexual practices were being carried on in the apostle Paul’s day and he did not remain silent about them, as can be seen in reading Romans 1:18-27. We are therefore only following his good example in considering this question here.

In discussing sexual practices, the apostle provides us a principle that helps us to reach a right conclusion. He refers to "the natural use of the female," which some were abandoning in favor of what is "contrary to nature," thus satisfying "disgraceful sexual appetites" and "working what is obscene." The apostle specifically deals with homosexual practices, condemning such. But the principle stated—that the satisfying of sexual desires can be "natural" or can be "contrary to nature"—applies just as well to the question under consideration.—See also Leviticus 18:22, 23.

The natural way for a married couple to have sexual relations is quite apparent from the very design given their respective organs by the Creator, and it should not be necessary to describe here how these organs complement each other in normal sexual copulation. We believe that, aside from those who have been indoctrinated with the view that ‘in marriage anything goes,’ the vast majority of persons would normally reject as repugnant the practice of oral copulation, as also anal copulation. If these forms of intercourse are not "contrary to nature," then what is? That those practicing such acts do so by mutual consent as married persons would not thereby make these acts natural or not "obscene." Are we being ‘narrow’ or ‘extreme’ in taking such position?

No, as seen by the fact that several states of the United States have for long had laws against precisely such practices, classifying them as forms of "sodomy"—eventhoughthoseengaginginthemaremarried. Because of this legal usage, Webster’sThirdNewInternationalDictionary includes in its definition of "sodomy" this: "carnal copulation with a member of the same sex or with an animal or unnatural carnal copulation with a member of the opposite sex; specif: the penetration of the male organ into the mouth or anus of another." Of course, dictionaries and state laws differ but our position is based primarily upon God’s Word the Bible. Yet such worldly evidence serves a certain purpose, one corresponding in principle to what the apostle said at 1 Corinthians 5:1. There he showed that the sexual relations of one member in the Corinthian congregation were of a kind condemned even by people of the pagan nations. So, the application of the term "sodomy" in modern times to the mentioned forms of copulation shows that we are not unreasonable in saying they are not only "unnatural" but grossly so.

However, since marriage is of divine origin, our conscientious stand on marital relations is not founded on or ruled by worldly views. Therefore the overruling of some state law and the declaring of oral copulation (or similar unnatural copulation) as ‘legal’ does not alter our Bible-based position. In a world of decaying morals we can expect that some law courts may succumb in varying degrees to the growing trend toward sexual perversion, just as some of the clergy and doctors have done.

It is not our purpose to attempt to draw a precise line as to where what is "natural" ends and what is "unnatural" begins. But we believe that, by meditating on Bible principles, a Christian should at least be able to discern what is grossly unnatural. In other areas, the Christian’s individual conscience will have to guide, and this includes questions regarding caresses and ‘love play’ prior to intercourse. (Compare Proverbs 5:18, 19.) But even here the Christian who wants to produce the fruits of God’s holy spirit will wisely avoid practices that approach, or could easily lead one to fall into, unnatural forms of copulation.

What if certain married couples in the congregation in the past or even in recent times have engaged in practices such as those just described, not appreciating till now the gravity of the wrong? Then they can seek God’s forgiveness in prayer and prove their sincere repentance by desisting from such gross unnatural acts.

It is certainly not the responsibility of elders or any others in a Christian congregation to search into the private lives of married couples. Nevertheless, if future cases of gross unnatural conduct, such as the practice of oral or anal copulation, are brought to their attention, the elders should act to try to correct the situation before further harm results, as they would do with any other serious wrong. Their concern is, of course, to try to help those who go astray and are ‘caught in the snare of the Devil.’ (2 Tim. 2:26) But if persons willfully show disrespect for Jehovah God’s marital arrangements, then it becomes necessary to remove them from the congregation as dangerous "leaven" that could contaminate others.—1 Cor. 5:6, 11-13.

What of Christian women married to unbelievers and whose mates insist on their sharing in such grossly unnatural acts? Does the apostle’s statement that "the wife does not exercise authority over her own body, but her husband does" give a wife the basis for submitting to these demands? (1 Cor. 7:4) No, for such husbandly authority is only relative. God’s authority remains always supreme. (1 Cor. 11:3; Acts 5:29) The apostle, furthermore, was speaking of normal sexual relations, as the context indicates. True, refusal to engage in unholy acts may bring hardship or even persecution on a wife, but the situation is the same as if her husband demanded that she engage in some form of idolatry, in misuse of blood, dishonesty or other such wrong.

Millions of married couples throughout the earth, both in the past and in the present, have found that unselfish love brings joy and full satisfaction, for both partners, in marital relations, without resorting to perverted methods. Realizing that a corrupt world is soon to be wiped away, we can think on the words of the apostle Peter, who wrote: "Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah." Yes, this is not the time to be slipping into, or letting others beguile or pressure us into, unholy practices just to satisfy selfish passion. Not if we truly cherish our hope of living in the fresh, clean new order now so near. (2 Pet. 3:11, 12; Jude 7) So, Christian married couples can keep ‘the marriage bed without defilement,’ not only by refraining from fornication and adultery, but also by avoiding defiling, unnatural practices.—Heb. 13:4.

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Married

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How about sexual activity between married couples within the marriage bond? It is not for the elders to pry into the intimate lives of married Christians. However, the Bible certainly enters into their lives. Those who would "keep walking by spirit" should not ignore the Scriptural indications of God’s thinking. And they will do well to cultivate a hatred for everything that is unclean before Jehovah, including what are clearly perverted sexual practices. Married couples should act in a way that will leave them with a clean conscience, as they give unimpeded attention to developing "the fruitage of the spirit."—Galatians 5:16, 22, 23; Ephesians 5:3-5.

What, though, if one mate wants or even demands to share with his or her partner in what is clearly a perverted sex practice? The above-presented facts show that porneia involves unlawful sexual conduct outside the marital arrangement. Thus, a mate’s enforcing perverted acts, such as oral or anal sex, within the marriage would not constitute a Scriptural basis for a divorce that would free either for remarriage. Even though a believing mate is distressed by the situation, yet that one’s endeavor to hold to Scriptural principles will result in a blessing from Jehovah. In such cases it may be helpful for the couple to discuss the problem frankly, bearing in mind especially that sexual relations should be honorable, wholesome, an expression of tenderlove. This certainly should exclude anything that might distress or harm one’s mate.—Ephesians 5:28-30; 1 Peter 3:1, 7.

As already stated, it is not for elders to "police" the private marital matters of couples in the congregation. However, if it becomes known that a member of the congregation is practicing or openly advocating perverted sex relations within the marriage bond, that one certainly would not be irreprehensible, and so would not be acceptable for special privileges, such as serving as an elder, a ministerial servant or a pioneer. Such practice and advocacy could even lead to expulsion from the congregation. Why?

Galatians 5:19-21 lists many vices that are not classed as porneia, and which could lead to one’s being disqualified from God’s Kingdom. Among them are "uncleanness" (Greek, akatharsia, signifying filthiness, depravity, lewdness) and "loose conduct" (Greek, aselgeia, signifying licentiousness, wantonness, shameless conduct). Like porneia, these vices, when they become gross, can be grounds for disfellowshipping from the Christian congregation, but not for obtaining a Scriptural divorce. A person who brazenly advocates shocking and repulsive sexual activities would be guilty of loose conduct. Of course, a person with that attitude might even sink to committing porneia; then there would be a basis for a Scriptural divorce. How concerned all devoted Christians should be to avoid and war against all such "works of the flesh"!—Galatians 5:24, 25.

All of Jehovah’s people, whether married or single, should shun every kind of immorality. They should give loyal support to all of Jehovah’s arrangements, including the institution of marriage. (Psalm 18:21-25) Those who are married should, as "one flesh," endeavor to honor Jehovah, cultivating true love and respect in their marriage. (Genesis 2:23, 24; Ephesians 5:33; Colossians 3:18, 19) In this way, as in other ways, they can show that they are "no part of the world"—a world that Satan has dragged into a mire of immorality and corruption and that is about to ‘pass away with its desire.’ Remembering that "he that does the will of God remains forever," all should strive to do God’s "will" in relation to His precious arrangement of marriage.—John 17:16; 1 John 2:17.

jgnat

Well then. That is one clarification I am NOT going to share with my husband. I do note in these examples, it is assumed that one partner wants to and the other doesn't. What if both partners are keen?

nvrgnbk

What if both partners are keen?

Then they mutually violate their consciences.

Everytime you indulge, you think Jehovah's displeased with you.

Hell of a way to live, huh?

WT Comments (Dec 3-9 ORAL SEX) FEATURING RICHIE RICH

JWdaughter

Robert_V_Frazier

Mr Ben

jgnat

blondie

jgnat

nvrgnbk

blondie

jgnat

Jeffro

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