agnostic.....reality?

by msil 47 Replies latest jw friends

  • Julie
    Julie

    Greetings to all:

    I consider myself to be agnostic, I don't know if there is a god or not. When it comes to demons, I have no belief whatsoever. Like Seeker (whose opinion matters a lot to me btw) I guess I just don't have the sort of mind that conjures up such things. I guess I wasn't that good of a Christian afterall because I am not at all prone to superstition.

    Seeker, funny "the demons find me boring". Silly boy, if there were such a thing I am sure anyone as bright and respected as you would be prime target material. Good thing it's a myth in place to back up religious beliefs. Anyone who believes there are demons should be made aware that they exist only in the mind.

    Regards,
    Julie

  • gumby
    gumby

    Suppose you were to talk to a number of people who saw dishes flying out of the cupboard at the same time. Then you would know it was not in the mind of one person. I have heard of many stories of others who have seen,heard,felt,demons. Never had the experiance myself and hope not to if these stories are true.
    The best proof you can have for God to me is design in creation.
    Look at the stats of the possibilities that all this could have just happened.
    In Jesus day they wanted a "SIGN" that he was the christ. He gave the example of Jonah. Jonah was in the grave for three days and was delivered from death.That was their sign.
    Many non christian writers/historians have written of the man Jesus...that he truely existed, did what the bible say's he did.
    Unless all these men concocted their stories together for some strange reason they wrote in close detail of one another.
    Why would non christians lie about him? What would they gain?

  • Seeker
    Seeker
    The best proof you can have for God to me is design in creation.

    On the contrary, evolution is a much better explanation for the endless predation that exists in nature.

    Look at the stats of the possibilities that all this could have just happened.

    Evolution doesn't "just happen."

    Many non christian writers/historians have written of the man Jesus...that he truely existed, did what the bible say's he did.

    Not true, hardly any non-Christian writers/historians mention Jesus. It's amazing how little was written about him other than from true believers.

    Unless all these men concocted their stories together for some strange reason they wrote in close detail of one another.

    Except for the details that didn't match, yes.

    Why would non christians lie about him? What would they gain?

    Exactly, which is why the fact they hardly even mention Jesus is so significant.

  • Bridgette
    Bridgette

    Seeker, you said: "Evidently my experience counts for nothing around here." Don't be paranoid, my purry friend, I hang on every word that issues from your furry mouth! . LOL!
    Actually, MSIL, I'm between , Seeker, b-boy and Sirona. I, like Seeker, have tried everything that by our borg infused superstitions, should have infested me immediately with demons. I do not believe in the devil of the bible, or demons perse---but I have tried everything from reading Tarot (they sit right by my bed and I consult them frequently), using a pendulum to divine (it has always been right), to being in several "sacred spaces"...or a witch's circles (Sirona might know what I mean).
    I've never had demon attacks. EVER. I have never even been frightened. I've barely even had any of what some call paranormal experiences--NOT FOR LACK OF TRYING. Sometimes I think just my skeptical mind set precludes a lot of hocus pocus. I do have many prophetic dreams. And I've begun to be "contacted" by those of other realms. They have all been very "nice". I have only had one that I had to turn away. It was more confused than anything else. Like a clingy, needy person who just wants to draw energy--you know the type. It's just like with those of us here in this realm there is good, bad, wise, confused (in fact, people with bad intentions scare me more than spirits with bad energy). One of the most pleasant visitors was my husband's friend who's been dead for 20 years. He came to me in a dream, and left me with an identifying item for my husband (a very distinctive item of clothing he was wearing). My husband, who is pretty skeptical, recognized it right away. I never knew this man, and barely knew of his existence. He imparted to me that there is a scientific explanation for everything, and not to be too "dazzled" by anything I was seeing. He let me know that just because our science has not explained how he and I were communicating at that time, didn't make it hocus pocus. My husband said that would be exactly something he would say.
    Just a funny side note: my mother who is a faithful witness spent the night in my bedroom where I'd done some work (contacting the other realm) with an antique, "haunted" mirror. She LOVED the mirror and slept like a baby for 3 nights. So, go figure.
    If you invite negative energies, whether they are of this realm, or others, or just in your own psyche, you will get them. JW's are so afraid, that I beleive they manifest or invoke many of the garage sale demons they encounter.
    Oh, and another myth I'd like to dispel from our religious past. The name or persona of Jehovah or Satan neither frightens, repels, nor is used by people who practice the arts. I have conferred with many witches and practicers of the craft on this. If there's anybody with data or experiences otherwise, that anyone who PRACTICES knows of, please let me know, as I've always wondered about this one.
    anyway, that's my $1.00 worth
    B. :)

  • gumby
    gumby

    Seeker:Evolution doesn't "just happen."
    Well it must have happened from something at some time Everything that exists happened at one time.
    Again...What are the stats that they could happen?
    Seeker: (Quoting my reply)
    Many non christian writers/historians have written of the man Jesus...that he truely existed, did what the bible say's he did.

    Seekers reply:Not true, hardly any non-Christian writers/historians mention Jesus
    How about these guys to name a few
    1.Cornelius Tacitus
    2.Lucian of samosata
    3.Suetonius
    4. Pliny the Younger
    5.Thallus
    6.Phlegon
    7. mara Bar Serapion
    8. josephus
    Seeker:Except for the details that didn't match, yes.
    Which details are you reffering to?

    Seeker:Exactly, which is why the fact they hardly even mention Jesus is so significant
    Why who mentions him?
    I just gave you a list of those that wrote a great deal about him.

  • Seeker
    Seeker
    Seeker:Evolution doesn't "just happen."
    Well it must have happened from something at some time Everything that exists happened at one time.
    Again...What are the stats that they could happen?

    Evolution describes the change over time of a population, but does not discuss original causes. That is a different topic. When I said evolution doesn't just happen, I was referring to the gradual changes that occur, something I thought you meant when you used the word "evolution."

    Seeker: (Quoting my reply)
    Many non christian writers/historians have written of the man Jesus...that he truely existed, did what the bible say's he did.

    Seekers reply:Not true, hardly any non-Christian writers/historians mention Jesus
    How about these guys to name a few

    These sources all wrote that Jesus did what the Bible says he did? I don't think so. Let's take your sources and see what we have:

    1.Cornelius Tacitus

    He wrote in 120 CE, "Nero punished...a class of men, loathed for their vices, whom the crowd styled Christians. Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus."

    That ain't much, and is merely repeating what he heard, almost 90 years after Jesus died.

    2.Lucian of samosata

    He wrote about 175 CE, about "the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world."

    Yes, and? Is that it? Another person, a century-and-a-half after Jesus, writing about what he had heard.

    3.Suetonius

    He wrote about 120 CE, ""As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome."

    Same story. Getting the picture? Not much about Jesus other than that he existed, and people followed him. The exact same thing could be said about Mohammed.

    4. Pliny the Younger

    He wrote in 112 CE that Christians sang "a hymn to Christ as to a god." Not much about Jesus or his life there, just noticing a cultural phenomenon.

    5.Thallus

    Thallus was a Samaritan freedman of the Emperor Tiberius who wrote a history of Greece and Asia, who mentions an eclipse of the sun. In 221 CE, a Christian writer, Sextus Julius Africanus notes that "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun." Thallus does not refer to a Jesus, only to an eclipse, which a Christian used to bolster the Christian story.

    6.Phlegon

    Appears not to have mentioned Jesus after all:
    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/thallus.html

    7. mara Bar Serapion

    He, writing later than 73 CE to his son, said, "What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king?... He lived on in the teaching which he had given."

    Not much about Jesus the man, or what he did, just a repeating of something he heard about.

    8. josephus

    The quotes attributed to Josephus seem to be spurious. Christian defenders as early as Clement of Alexandria (150-215 CE) never cited what Josephus supposedly said about Christ. Origen (185-254), who dealt extensively with Josephus, wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus to be the messiah nor proclaim him as such. Eusebius, in 324 CE, first mentions the passage about Chist (twice), and is likely the forger of it.

    These writers, who lived at the time that Jesus supposedly lived, left a library of Jewish and Pagan literature, in which not one mention of Jesus or of his apostles or his disciples appears: Arrian, Plutarch, Apollonius, Hermogones, Appian, Damis, Aulus Gellius, Appion of Alexandria, Philo Judaeus, Petronius, Juvenal, Quintilian, Silius Italicus, Phlegon, Pausanias, Dio Chrysostom, Favorinus, Seneca, Dion Pruseus, Martial, Lucanus, Statius, Phaedrus, Florus Lucius, Columella, Lysias, Theon of Myrna, Pliny the Elder, Paterculus, Persius, Justus of Tiberius, Epictetus, Ptolemy, Valerius Maximus, Quintius Curtius, Valerius Flaccus, and Pomponius Mela.

    You'd have to wonder why something supposedly as amazing as the life of Christ missed their notice entirely.

    I just gave you a list of those that wrote a great deal about him.

    Well, now you know better.

  • mommy
    mommy

    MSIL,
    Something very close to this line of reasoning is why I am now an atheist. I read an essay written by Farkel concerning right and wrong.Take a look . http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=4252&site=3#58616
    wendy

    Blind faith can justify anything.~Richard Dawkins

  • uncle_onion
    uncle_onion

    I found this link ... http://www.christian-thinktank.com/eyesopen.html

    Any thoughts

    PS Dont read it late at night!

    UO

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