This is the part I haven't figured out, Magick. How to reconcile Jehovah with Jesus. The two seem polar opposites.
Throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater Goodbye Watchtower Hello Nothing?
by Magick 68 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Magick
It would be nice for you to condense your thoughts and musings into bite sized morsels but ...you've written the prologue to a book. Gregor
Gregor, i was writing with my heart while my brain was resting. In the future, when these two have reconciled, I will aim to be more succinct and avoid all the waffle.
When I take a big bite of potato salad at the picnic and it tastes really bad I turn to the nearest garbage can and spit it out, "p'tooey!" I don't stop and say to myself,"Hmmm, if I don't eat this bad potato salad what will I eat? Maybe I should see what else there is to eat first, otherwise I will not have anything to eat...hmmm..."
When I left the JWs I had no idea what my beliefs were. But I damn sure knew that the Watchtower dogma was spoiled potato salad. I took my time and sifted through a lot of introspection and 'soul searching' to find what I believed and the process is still going on. Don't worry about the baby, just get rid of the bath water. Gregor
i do rather like potato salad. german, with lots of eggs and mustard.
if i were at a picnic and took a large spoonful of spoiled dogma...(if i had been eating it all my life..it would taste just fine and the belly ache tollerated) i might in my haste to rid my mouth of the foul taste, head for the nearest metal vat filled with grape Flavor Aid, (poisoned with valium, chloral hydrate, and presumably (though not certainly) cyanide)
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Magick
Funny, sometimes I wish I had not been born into witnesshood, because I think there is a possiblility if I had belonged to a more luke warm religion, I might have been content, and never have thought about it. But as it stands, I looked, and I looked and I looked and I looked. I am now sure there is no god. There is however personal responsibility and a rather beautiful world out there. beksbks
hi bek, there is an uneasy feeling when we realize that OUR parents were victims...and we are victims of victims. i do envy those who are balanced when it comes to religion. it is a part of their life but not their life. personal responsibility is such a foreign concept. so is a "beautiful world" years of cognitive behavioral therapy won't rid me of all the negative jw thoughts. oh wait, that was a negative statement...
I still believe in God even though those that teach "the truth" about God have been the worst kinds of abusers. I hope God has mercy on those that have been so abused.
I also hope that God would take a more active part in human affairs. I find his aloofness this late in the game rather disheartening. If he can make just the briefest of manifestations on the world scene today it would do the world a world of good - if you pardon the pun. Mankind would know that it is not really alone in the universe. And that there is a God after all! Roddy
If god does not have mercy on the abused, i'd rather remain ignorant of his wearabouts. yep...i'd like to see god spontaneously restore lost limbs on an amputee or at least send us a free sample of some type of miracle cure.
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Magick
one more and i must hit the hay.
I like Magick, Magick.
Magick is but Man in harmony with the undisputable Cosmic Laws of Nature and the Universe. The Magickal Personality is one that recognizes, accepts and merges with these energies to manifest a desired situation in reality.
Magick is not a belief of supernatural quality, rather the understanding of all things natural in accordance with the Cosmic Laws of the Universe. All that is existant is a sanction of the cosmos. This phenomena occurs through the most natural channels and in complete accordance to those immutable Laws.Magick is creating physical change by directly impacting the realm of energy. All things have energy. People, plants, animals and the elements all have an energy component. And this energy has a direct impact on the actions of people and the outcome of events. The most powerful energy that a person has is their thought energy. If you think about something hard enough you WILL manifest it in your life. For example Jehovah's Witnesses are always thinking about Satan, wickedness, persecution, everything negative. There are more demon stories within JWs than the general population. Here's another example...animals and children. If you are always thinking about what they shouldn't do....you are giving THAT energy....and children and animals WILL do what they shouldn't. Call it the law of attraction. My animals do this all the time. I am NOT an animal whisperer...I give my animals attention (energy) when they are bad.
I am learning too that that our thoughts influence our feelings and behavior, our feelings influence our behavior and thoughts and our behaviors influence our emotions and thoughts. *gets dizzy and falls over*
I am working on not being a self-fulfilling prophecy. In, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, a person's core beliefs *insert watchtower doctrine* (often formed in childhood) contribute to 'automatic thoughts' that pop up in every day life in response to situations. If we focus on those false watchtower beliefs and ideas...we give them energy...and they "magickally" appear and suck the life out of us.
speaking of sucking and having no life left...that reminds me...i need to sleep. :)
i hope that this thread keeps going. it took me a long time to realize i didn't have to get rid of most of who i am and how i think because i left the watchtower organization. i was very sad for a long time thinking there was nothing out there for me. please, remind all those who have left or are thinking of leaving that it is possible to be deprogrammed and still keep your identity.
i was talking to an inactive witness friend the other day and she said..."i believe most of what the witnesses teach...at least 90% of it" "i don't believe in field service" "but, until i find something better, this is it"
how many times have we heard that? witnesses who won't leave until they see something "better than the organization" the fact is, they will never "see something better"
UNTIL they leave.
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Superfine Apostate
i threw out the bathwater and there was no baby at all...
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destructo-girl
Hello. I'm new here, been lurking for ages. Thought I'd be really brave and reply as this topic has so accurately described my feelings.
I've done exactly what the original post said, threw it all out bathwater and baby and I feel awful. I used to have faith in Jesus, I used to love Jesus but when the 'Truth' collapsed so did everything else.
I totally agree with Superfine Apostate, I threw out the bathwater and there was no baby. To continue the metaphor, I was gutted that there was no baby and was frantically searching for the baby, but there never was a baby and there's no way of getting it back.
All that's left is a big fat scary NOTHING! Don't like it.
Feel a bit crappy now, and I have my BIble Study in 15 mins. Pointless really, won't bring the 'baby' back.
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Awakened07
Hi destructo-girl, and welcome to the forum.
Good opening topic post, Magick. It's easy to see why many would indeed 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' after leaving the JWs, since the JWs teach you that all other religions are false. Actually, you can tell a JW all that is wrong with religion, and they will just nod their head but then say "But it doesn't apply to us. We're special.".
But is that the reason people like me pretty much "throw God out"? Is it simply a case of "Oh well - what I've thought all my life was true turned out to be a lie, so now it's all a lie" ? For some it might be, but I'd argue it would be only a few. No one likes the idea that we're not anything special, that when we die, that's it.
To use a parable, we've been told that there's a truckload of gold waiting for us at the top of the mountain, if we only strive as hard as we can to get there. No one has been to the top and come down to tell the story, however some people say they've seen the glimmer of the gold in the sunlight. So we strive to climb the mountain every day. Then one day, someone with binoculars comes along. Actually it's more like a telescope. They say they can find no evidence of there being any gold up there, that all they can see with the telescope is more mountain, but that the glimmer reported by some is most likely the sun hitting - not gold - but a waterfall. They cannot be 100% conclusive, but their evidence seems to be compelling. One can even borrow the telescope to see for oneself. But some people refuse to borrow it, some people borrow it but don't know how it works, some claim that the telescope is inaccurate and has been doctored. So you've been struggling to climb this mountain for a long time, and your reward may not be there at all. It's not just that some people don't believe it's there - it never was there to begin with. You're thinking of perhaps joining the group who believes it's not gold up there, but a heap of rubies and diamonds. But of course, the evidence for those groups is no stronger than the 'gold group', and you can see no gems through the telescope.
If you've been promised eternal life and a relationship with your Creator all your life, anything else will inevitably be a let-down. There are no cookies in the kitchen cabinet, even though you were told there would be. You can scream and yell and bang the doors, but they just aren't there. "I want my cookies!". Sorry - it's empty, and nothing you do can bring them back, 'cause they were never there to begin with.
OK - enough with the limited parables. Suffice to say - atheists and agnostics, especially those who come out of the JWs and other religions, usually don't just throw the baby out automatically. If they do so, it's more likely from a careful study intended to get their hopes back into some deity.
It could be said that you'll reach a conclusion based on what you choose to study when you leave; that if you read religious books, you'll continue to be religious, and if you read scientific (especially about evolution) and atheist books you will become an agnostic or atheist. Maybe there's some truth to that, but personally I have found a bigger degree of wanting to be honest and open in secular writings than religious. And to me - just straight out more intelligent and rational. God is - many will say - not meant to be understood rationally, or to be seen or witnessed, but to be blindly believed in by faith. Some people believe based on personal experience, but it's not my personal experience. If you've had a personal experience, you no longer believe based on blind faith anyway, but on revelation. So God evidently reveals himself to some, but not others. And those others may be just as initially open and searching (often more so) than those who do get a personal experience. It doesn't make sense, just like it doesn't make sense that God should help a soccer mom get to a match on time while not helping people in real need.
Basically - some may just leave religion and God altogether after leaving JWs, but I think most will try to find answers for themselves first.
Personally, I don't say God cannot exist. But He is 'shrinking' day by day. He used to be HUGE, creating galaxies and worlds, but now you're lucky if he cures a cold sore. There are theological apologetics for that, but it is strange that the more mankind learns about their surroundings, the less powerful God becomes. He used to cause rain, thunderstorms, crops to live or die and humans the same - but today he's simply 'there' - at best. If so, I don't see the evidence.
To a theist, a believer, an atheist I'm sure will be viewed as someone opposing God. To them, "God exists, it's plain to see, so those who are atheist must see it too but choose to ignore Him". Sorry - that's not how it works. I welcome a God if he/she/it is a good "guy".
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Scully
we were so conditioned (brainwashed) into thinking that jehovah's witnesses own "the truth," that when we discover they DON'T, we dismiss ALL religion as NON-TRUTH. essentially, we throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Well, it seems that the WTS did an excellent job of painting all other religions with the brush of non-truth. The dilemma for JWs, once they subscribe to the belief that "all other religions are false", they must buy into the "Hotel California clause", the corollary belief that "there is nowhere else to go if you want to leave the JWs" (you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave).
When we discover that JWs do not have a monopoly on The Truth™, we still face the problem of untangling our thoughts and beliefs, some of which is relatively simple, but there are knots we encounter along the way that take more effort to work through.
I have dismissed all religion. To me, it's all false, the whole mess. That doesn't mean I believe in "nothing"; far from it. You are making the erroneous assumption that atheism is inferior to theism.
Rather than dismissing atheism as "belief in nothing", and thus not worthy of investigation, I suggest that you take the time to research atheism, particularly what is known as "positive atheism". Here is a brief synopsis of positive atheism, which you can refer to when you are ready to investigate it: http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/faq1111.htm#WHATISATHEISM
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jgnat
aaalll, right. Never-JW regular Christian checking in here. You can kick my thoughts to the curb if they don't fit.
I find the Witnesses to be chiefly an anti-religion. In essence, you are supposed to pick them because everyone else is worse. The world is going down the toilet, and most people on this planet are doomed for destruction. But what do they stand FOR? Paradise Earth in some impossibly distant future? Which is their second chief characteristic. Their materialism. They slave for the promised "reward". There's very little about giving with no thought of return, love largely, have hope in people, and so on.
So what is a person to do who finds out the anti-religion is a sham? The exiting person has rejected the false. What else is left?
I've done a fair bit of study on the psychology of happiness. http://www.authentichappiness.sas.upenn.edu/ You may get better mental health by asking yourself about all that is good in your life, what is worthwhile, rather than analyzing all that was wrong.
My hats off to you all. It's a large job rebuilding your entire belief set, your morals and ethics. You are facing chaos head-on and making your life your own. You walk alone, and you stand tall.
There are very few people in the world who look that deeply within. Bravo.
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Awakened07
I find the Witnesses to be chiefly an anti-religion. In essence, you are supposed to pick them because everyone else is worse. The world is going down the toilet, and most people on this planet are doomed for destruction. But what do they stand FOR? Paradise Earth in some impossibly distant future? Which is their second chief characteristic. Their materialism. They slave for the promised "reward". There's very little about giving with no thought of return, love largely, have hope in people, and so on.
You make an important point, jgnat, and one I forgot to address. People are not part of a religion solely for the "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow", but also because they feel their life is better for it in the now. In addition, it is often a notion that God would be saddened if we didn't believe in Him. That's why they often stay even when they have doubts: "Even if this religion isn't correct, at least I have a happy life now while being in it". Getting very close to Pascal's wager and all it's problems, but not necessarily.
Actually - if a person's religious beliefs do not impair his/her life in any way or the lives of others, there may not be anything wrong with believing it on a personal level. One could say that I as an atheist should tell such a person that they are wrong, that what they believe is not factual and not provable, but as an atheist I also have to acknowledge that I think this is the only life we'll get, and as such it's up to each and every one to decide what will make his/her life the best and most happy. Religion unfortunately does often claim exclusivity, and does therefore often impair other people's lives in some way, and also their own members. Jehovah's Witnesses are an example of a religion which can in a worst case scenario end your life prematurely, or at least stop you from being who you really are and doing what you really are good at "in this life", while waiting for the next. That would be sort of OK if their hope for the future was just as provable (100%) as the fact that we are alive now. But since that is not the case, they should not demand such sacrifices.
But if a person's faith does not hamper their own or anyone else's lives and opportunities and it makes them happy, I don't necessarily have anything against it. Not for me personally, but their life is not mine.
