Help needed: Killing the 'The light gets brighter' argument?

by jah1914 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Lady Liberty
    Lady Liberty

    And to top it all off it is all done and said by the name of God. Does the student who is leading the class say he has all the answers because he is teaching the class being guided by God's Holy Spirit? No. Bad example from your conductor. Misleading a classs cannot compare to a group of self appointed men claiming Holy Spirit misleading 6 million people, at the cost of their very lives. And to top it all off, it is left that way for years!


    Lady Liberty

  • jah1914

    Thanks all who responded, you make some good points. I think Gopher hit a good chord when he said the illustration starts with so many assumptions, assumptions that many of you pointed out has a false premise. The illustration was carefully crafted to prove his point, but was not necessarily a realistic picture of how the FDS operates. He probably was just trying to stump me back for an illustration I stumped him on after the KM about not studying outside material. It's almost like a game we are playing and I think that is why he hasn't said, "Hey you sound like an apostate...."

    In my illustration I asked him, if a doctor diagnosised him with a terrible disease and he as the patient wasn't sure he had the symptoms would he seek a second opinion? Of course he answered yes, to which I replied, "Would you go to the same doctor that had just given you the first opinion?" Again, he answered, "No that would be stupid." I said then why would the FDS try to deny a christian the right to ask a second opinion of someone(via non-JW study material) if the christian did not fully believe the 'diagnosis' given to them? Especially since they themselves(FDS) glean 'the truth' from these sources? I'm still waiting on an answer to that one.

    I will try to combine the best of your arguments and talk with him next Tuesday.

    Thanks to all who included scriptures as well. I haven't had much experience in refuting a religious viewpoint without use the scriptures. I found that if you don't at least attempt to use the scriptures, any conversation quickly breaks down into 'reasonings that get you know where'.

    Thanks's good to have a resource like this. I'm still a christian in association with JW's, but there's nothing wrong with getting a second opinion........

  • OnTheWayOut
    I said then why would the FDS try to deny a christian the right to ask a second opinion of someone(via non-JW study material) if the christian did not fully believe the 'diagnosis' given to them? Especially since they themselves(FDS) glean 'the truth' from these sources? I'm still waiting on an answer to that one.

    That was an excellent reply. It reveals the cult programming if the other person is honest.
    You can respect the first doctor and his sincere desire to help, but you think he may be
    wrong and looking at the data wrong, or omitting important factors.

    JW's freely admit their Governing Body is not infallible, but are supposed to think their
    mistakes have all been corrected. They are supposed to accept what they say now as
    truth, and then say (out loud if it helps) that Jehovah will straighten out the matter if they
    need further adjusting.

    I have had conversations with intelligent JW's who are able to avoid the word "wrong" with
    their feelings on current understandings. It deeply disturbs me.

  • carla

    Why do jw's make such comparisons to begin with? The compare being wrong in math or science with making changes in God's word. Hello, this is the word of God here not the math books man came up with. Being wrong in math or science is not the same with being wrong and preaching wrong things about God. If one believes in God and ones eternal salvation there is a huge difference! Their argument makes no sense to begin with. I asked my jw once if that meant he was comparing the word of God with textbooks? Men make errors, God remains the same today, yesterday and tomorrow. If they then are men making errors to begin with, why listen to them at all?

  • JosephMalik


    To clarify you should know that if the Jerusalem Congregation consisting of apostles and disciples was the FDS for their time, why then did they keep the Law and circumcision long after Christ died and taught Jews everywhere to do the same? Why after Paul was sent by the Antioch congregation to correct this matter did they trick Paul with a letter that only exempted the Gentiles from keeping the Law and circumcision but they continued to keep the Law for over 14 more years. Why after all this time when Paul finally went back to correct them once again (Recorded in Acts chapter 21) did they threaten Paul with violence to take the vows and prove to them all that he (Paul) also walked orderly and kept the Law? 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Why did they now after all this time admit that their letter was intended for Gentiles only and not for Jews? 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. Was Paul wrong or was James, the apostles and thousands of disciples in Jerusalem still wrong? Why did such believing Jews aspire to kill Paul anyway and it took the Roman army to save him? Why did it take the book of Hebrews to put an end to all this if they were the controlling group? Did this book make the light brighter or did it replace the empty lamp they were using that produced no light in support of their conclusions? This is not the only error recorded in scripture made by such a so called FDS. But it was recorded for us so that we would not fear and follow such men and become their disciples.


  • Lady Liberty
    Lady Liberty

    Dear Jah1914,

    Here are a few scriptures that may help you as well:

    2 Tim. 1:7


    For God gave us not a spirit of cowardice, but that of power and of love and of soundness of mind.

    Acts 17:11


    Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to Be·roe´a, and these, upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·ni´ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.

    John 4: 23

    23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.

    Matt. 15:9


    It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’"

    John 8:32

    32 and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free."

    Matt. 7:7

    7 "Keep on asking, and it will be given YOU; keep on seeking, and YOU will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to YOU.

    All these scriptures show that its ok to ask, question and examine your faith in God's eyes, because he is looking for those who truth matters to them.


    Lady Liberty

  • wanderlustguy

    When an organization places itself in between people and God, and claims to have special knowledge of future events, as the Society does, the organization had better get things right. Working through a math problem and coming up with the wrong answer is entirely different than claiming you signed up as an NGO to get access to a library card, which any person can get access to without a NGO status. Another example is purchasing a house for the resurrected "faithful of old" to live in and then using it as a love shack.

    Add to that changing the meaning of "generation" which is something people based their whole life on in cluding planning for retirement. It's one thing if it's figured out in a timely manner, but to get "new light" with less time left than most people have if they buy a new car, that's suscpicious.

    If you claim to have special insight from God, you can't turn around every time you have to change the story and say, yea well it's new light.

    New light came on organ donations after some had been disfellowshipped or even died.. How many people were contacted and reinstated after the new light?


  • freetosee
  • lrkr

    The difference between the FDS and a math professor is what's at stake and how seriously the discussion is taken. If you want to study a math problem from different angles- have at it. Its scholarly playtime that helps you develop your logical, reasoning and conceptualizing skills.

    The FDS is different because-

    1-The seriousness of the conversation. Although later the fds will admit something was a mistake- they will never admit this at the time- and heaven help you if you beg to differ with their approach. This is no collegial debating society, or even a group of professionals taking different approaches to a problem- It is "their way" or the Highway. And the penalty for disagreeing is not speaking to your friends and family ever again.

    2- What is at stake. When the FDS says that the end is close, or near, or coming soon, the reaction of the faithful (encouraged by the heirarchy) is to delay receiving needed medical treatment, quit jobs, sell houses, not go to college. In other words- the FDS is having an impact on serious life decisions (not some simple math professor trying to push his students). The reaction of the faithful to mandates about blood, health care, college, child rearing- often have life long significant emotional (and sometimes life or death) consequences.

    Overall- the comparison of a math professor to a "way of life" is oversimplified and demeaning.

  • dawg

    This is real simple jah1914.... simply say this, your example is a prime false analogy fallacy, it compares two unlike things. First off, no teacher would ever dis-fellowship his student for not thinking he was right about a math probelm. THe FADS do. It isn't that they are worng to correct what they are saying, it's that they are wrong that they say they are inspired by spirit, they are men and make mistakes like us all. Problem is they don't think they are men like the reat of us, if they did they wouldn't be so miffed when somone points out their error.

    Next thing I'd do is hand him the bible and ask him to show you where questioning men is a disfellowshipping offense. Ask him how questioning the FADS is "apostacy" towards God. If they are men and not God then they can be quesitoned.

    By the way, false anoligies is the most often logical fallacy a JW committs. THay's becasue what they're saying is always BS and they need some crazy off the wall way of explaining it away

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