So after the Revelation study last night where the paragraph was talking about how Russell's interpertation of Revelation basically didn't work and got discarded, my wife comments with the same old,"the light gets brigther, that's why I respect FDS because at least they will change when they figure out something is wrong." (insert vomit here) Afterwards, me and the Book Study conductor(I have to at least give him credit, he is someone I can talk to freely about my questions and he has not,as of yet, turned me in) got into a discussion of what 'the light gets brighter' really means. He basically says so the brothers have made changes, so what? (Not so matter of fact though) He gave me an illustration that I need to logically poke holes in(no purely emotional responses please - if you have some scriptures in mind that would be helpful too.) Here it goes, best of my recollection(and yes he really did take the time to explain it this way): You are a student tutor in a math class. You are a student yourself, but you appear to excel in class and so the teacher has asked you to assist in helping some of the other students. You sincerely just want to help your fellow students, with no-ill motive. You are learning just like they are. Most of the time you have help with a math problem, you give the correct answer and it is verified by other students and the teacher. However on a couple of math problems you are given, you are unsure of the answer. You ask the teacher, but the teacher encourages you to figure it out, because it will help you as well(after all no teacher just gives you the answer(he used a Gospel scripture here about 'Keep on seeking, asking and you will find'). The teacher wants to see if you can figure it out. So you go to solve the problem with and it turns out you were wrong. Not only that everyone you gave the answer to was wrong. After exhausting numerous possbilities and time, you go to the teacher who helps you work out the answer. (Then he asked me some questions) 1. What was true about the answer? Did the answer change or did your understanding of it change? 2. How should your fellow students react to the mistake(s) you made? How would you want them to react? Once you have what you believe to be the correct answer, should you bring it back to them? 3. Do you think the teacher is upset that you tried and got the wrong answer to a very difficult problem? Would he be more upset if you just gave up and didn't keep trying to solve the problem? He would certainly be justified in being upset and removing you as a tutor if in the problem you missed some simple math portions(incorrectly added numbers, etc), but that wasn't the case you got the simple stuff right, you just missed the difficult portions.How should the teacher feel? After all you were one of the few to actually set up and try to help the other students? He didn't try to answer the questions(he said he wanted them to stew). I know what he was trying to illustrate(student tutor = FDS, student = general JW's, teacher = Jesus) and he gave me what each person in the illustration represented, but I need help in logically poking holes in it. We are going to discuss next bookstudy. Thanks in advance.
Help needed: Killing the 'The light gets brighter' argument?
by jah1914 39 Replies latest watchtower bible
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jah1914
Sorry I still am working on this formatting thing. If I got this right, this should be easier to read.
So after the Revelation study last night where the paragraph was talking about how Russell's interpertation of Revelation basically didn't work and got discarded, my wife comments with the same old,"the light gets brigther, that's why I respect FDS because at least they will change when they figure out something is wrong." (insert vomit here) Afterwards, me and the Book Study conductor(I have to at least give him credit, he is someone I can talk to freely about my questions and he has not,as of yet, turned me in) got into a discussion of what 'the light gets brighter' really means. He basically says so the brothers have made changes, so what? (Not so matter of fact though)
He gave me an illustration that I need to logically poke holes in(no purely emotional responses please - if you have some scriptures in mind that would be helpful too.)
Here it goes, best of my recollection(and yes he really did take the time to explain it this way):
You are a student tutor in a math class. You are a student yourself, but you appear to excel in class and so the teacher has asked you to assist in helping some of the other students. You sincerely just want to help your fellow students, with no-ill motive. You are learning just like they are. Most of the time you have help with a math problem, you give the correct answer and it is verified by other students and the teacher.
However on a couple of math problems you are given, you are unsure of the answer. You ask the teacher, but the teacher encourages you to figure it out, because it will help you as well(after all no teacher just gives you the answer(he used a Gospel scripture here about 'Keep on seeking, asking and you will find'). The teacher wants to see if you can figure it out. So you go to solve the problem with and it turns out you were wrong. Not only that everyone you gave the answer to was wrong. After exhausting numerous possbilities and time, you go to the teacher who helps you work out the answer. (Then he asked me some questions)
1. What was true about the answer? Did the answer change or did your understanding of it change?
2. How should your fellow students react to the mistake(s) you made? How would you want them to react? Once you have what you believe to be the correct answer, should you bring it back to them?
3. Do you think the teacher is upset that you tried and got the wrong answer to a very difficult problem? Would he be more upset if you just gave up and didn't keep trying to solve the problem? He would certainly be justified in being upset and removing you as a tutor if in the problem you missed some simple math portions(incorrectly added numbers, etc), but that wasn't the case you got the simple stuff right, you just missed the difficult portions.How should the teacher feel? After all you were one of the few to actually set up and try to help the other students?
He didn't try to answer the questions(he said he wanted them to stew). I know what he was trying to illustrate(student tutor = FDS, student = general JW's, teacher = Jesus) and he gave me what each person in the illustration represented, but I need help in logically poking holes in it. We are going to discuss next bookstudy.
Thanks in advance. -
Zico
1. What was true about the answer? Did the answer change or did your understanding of it change?
The answer changed.
2. How should your fellow students react to the mistake(s) you made? How would you want them to react? Once you have what you believe to be the correct answer, should you bring it back to them?
It depends, if you make the claim that you're a Mathematics professor, and that you're always right I think they'd be pretty annoyed (and confused) if you constantly went back to the same problems with new answers. If you've just told them that you had the answer correct, and they have to believe it or you'll have them kicked out of class, how would they feel when you went back with a new answer?
3. Do you think the teacher is upset that you tried and got the wrong answer to a very difficult problem? Would he be more upset if you just gave up and didn't keep trying to solve the problem? He would certainly be justified in being upset and removing you as a tutor if in the problem you missed some simple math portions(incorrectly added numbers, etc), but that wasn't the case you got the simple stuff right, you just missed the difficult portions.How should the teacher feel? After all you were one of the few to actually set up and try to help the other students?
I think the teacher would be annoyed if you'd told the class that the answer you came up with last time was infallible and that anyone who disagreed with you would be kicked out of class!
The problem with the 'New light' doctrine, is that the Organisation claims to be led by holy spirit, and be God's one true Organisation. If it didn't claim this, it wouldn't matter that it constantly changed doctrine. Being imperfect men is not an excuse to make mistakes when God is guiding you. The Society claim the bible is inspired, and has no flaws, and yet, it was written by imperfect men. If Jehovah could inspire imperfect men to write a flawless, and perfect bible, why can he no longer inspire imperfect men to write flawless, and perfect interpretations? -
marmot
What kind of ****ed-up teacher lets his students study WRONG examples?
The only logic to that line of reasoning is if the teacher wanted to demonstrate how NOT to do something, in which case he would HIGHLIGHT the errors made and carefully examine them to teach the rest of the class how to do it correctly. Last time I checked the Faithful Slave had a habit of minimizing errors and playing revisionist historian. -
Gopher
Jah1914,
That's a tough one. That illustration your conductor gave is filled with so many assumptions, it's tough to overcome.
Here's what I think: Why should a student listen to a student tutor who keeps telling him wrong information? In classrooms I've been in, the teacher knows the answer and I can get accurate direction from the teacher.
Example -- the generation teaching: Before 1995, the "generation that would not pass away" was the people who were alive in 1914. Then it changed to be - "the wicked generation" that opposed Jehovah, whenever Armageddon came. As you may know, that teaching is about to change again.
So which of these 3 versions are "true"?
What if someone in 1990 said, "I don't think the generation teaching is right", and they gave an explanation later accepted by the WT Society. They'd be viewed as "running ahead", and might have been kicked out of the congregation.
However, what if in your classroom you disagreed with the tutor but agreed with the teacher? You wouldn't get kicked out of the class!
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jwfacts
There are a few things to consider.
Read Prov 4 in entirity and it is obviously not about doctrine.
JW teachings do not get brighter, the significantly change
If JWs think the Bible is 100% accurate, then his organization should be also able to produce accurate info. The light gets brighter is just an excuse to dismiss errors, nothing more.
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jacethespace
A normal teacher doesnt threaten you with eternal destruction if you get the answer wrong!
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Gill
If the 'light is getting brighter' there would be no 'flip flop' beliefs or doctrines!
I believe there is a large list of WT 'flip flops'.
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vitty
Isnt that a case of the blind leading the blind, so that they both fall into the pit.
The example of a student "helping " the other students is not the same as the F&D. The student doesnt chuck out any of the other students off the course because they dont agree with him or they come up with a different answer..........the right one. If the students keeps comming up with the wrong answer then the teacher would questions himself, if this student was good enough to "help" or should he choose someone else who is a little less aggresive with the others.
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OnTheWayOut
Okay, the Governing Body and their predecessors don't claim to be perfect, but they
do claim to represent God. Their statements are not discreet, in that they say, "We
don't know, this could be wrong." (They also don't have only some major stuff wrong,
but that would be difficult to argue.)The main flaw with the argument is that the teacher, Jehovah, allows them to carry
their message beyond the group of students in class. The GB take their flawed
solution, assume God's blessings, and proclaim it in field service to the world.
It's one thing to allow the students to try to reason it out, but another to let it be
told as the true correct answer in print, on doorsteps, in private homes."The light gets brighter" would mean vague truth becoming more specific. Not wrong
understanding becoming right understanding. You work the math so far, admitting
the answer is still beyond your current ability, and wait until further taught how to
solve the problem before proclaiming the answer. That would be discreet.