I'm waiting, JCanon.
I've been waiting all my fu*king life!
Bring on the Lake of Fire!
Bring on the death and destruction!
Praise God!
What is concept of worship? Why would God want it so bad? I don't get it.
by oompa 38 Replies latest watchtower bible
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JWdaughter
Sycophant. There is a word to describe 'worshippers'. I remember going to churches where they sat there just 'taking in knowledge' and those who would wave their arms, tears streaming, snot flowing whilst they sang repetitive verses over and over and OVER again. In the first case it didn't feel like worship, and in the others, I felt like a fraud-since I knew I really didn't feel that way about it, and I felt like a fraud even being in the room. I am not much of a waver. . .I was sincerely THERE, wanting to feel that way, wanting to be into it, but I never could. I attributed it to my upbringing, but I really think that it felt wrong because it was intrinsically wrong. Whether there is a god or not-I don't know. But I do know that if there is, he isn't much swayed by snot.
When a good parent is confronted with a sobbing, hysterical child, on a regular basis, begging and pleading about the same things-how much do we want to give them what they ask? How much do we wish we could send them to grandma and escape to anywhere else?
Religion makes folks into sycophants. There is nothing good about that word unless it helps you to win a spelling bee.
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Gopher
Fresia: all he requires is to respect and obey those laws of love and unity for the benifit of all including himself.
Can't we show love and unity toward fellow humans even without a belief in God? Arguments over the nature and teachings of "God" actually divide people against each other and throw gasoline on the burning fire of warfare and international hatred.
Ringo5: Put Yourself in god's shoes - your busy putting together a far away galaxy, and you're constantly being bothered. By what? Here is this one particular needy species that you created, that is really starting to get on your nerves . Millions of them seem to find it necessary to harass you, sometimes numerous times through the day, just to say how great you are, as if you really need to hear that again.
But doesn't the Bible say "God is the hearer of prayer", and doesn't it tell us - command us to pray? If he didn't want people to pray, then those words shouldn't be in the book. And furthermore, if he is so all-powerful, surely he could turn off the sound of those prayers -- or delegate some of his myriads of angels to deal with those pesky earthlings, eh?
PinTail: if you had children and was a wonderful provider for them would you not want them to admire you for all that you freely gave them, life its self, even more so with God.
But God says those who don't worship him will suffer eternally (or die while others enjoy their eternal life). Would parents harass their children for failing to constantly express a public adoration of them? The worship that the Bible requires goes beyond a simple childlike admiration. You'd better praise him, or get ready to face God's wrath. That's admiration out of fear. (No thank you.)
JCanon: Don't know if he'll ever get around to those who are too arrogant and dumb to save their own souls. It's a WONDERFUL plan, I love it! ...... So enjoy worshipping yourself while your time lasts. You will die being righteously indignant.....Further, he requires all the angels to worship him to, as god. Anybody who doesn't, will be put to death.Those who are too ungrateful for their lives, those lives will be extinguished, because they are worthless anyway.
Your hatefulness towards those who don't agree with your narrow view is showing through. I guess since I'm not a worshipper, I'm worthless. Thanks, anyhow. Re-read 1 Corinthians 13 about having all sorts of knowledge but not love. You're coming off like a 'clashing cymbal'.
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LtCmd.Lore
I find it amusing how some theists can't put things in proportion in their comparisons.
It's like saying that "death is the wages of sin, but life is a gift from god."
That makes it SOUND like sin is hard, and getting life is the easy part. And then it's changed to: "Well, it's a gift, but you have to reach out and grab it."
Which in reality means: "Well, it's gift, but you have to work your butt off and live in self denial for your whole life, donate lots of money to the church, spend 20+ hours a month preaching and attend 5 meetings a week to get it. And then hope like crazy that you HAPPENED to choose the right religion out of millions of others. But it's a gift!"
Don't we appreciate what our mother does for us? Making sure we get fed and are kept clean? Don't we appreciate what she does for us? Doesn't she deserve our obedience while she's raising us?
Again, gods posistion is misrepresented. "Don't we appreciate what our mother does for us?" Present tense, indicates that he is actively doing something for us... What is he currently doing for me?
"Making sure we get fed and are kept clean?" Still misrepresents what god is supposedly doing. You feed YOURSELF, despite Jesus' jibberish about not planning ahead like the lillies. You IGNORE that advice because you know how stupid it is. God isn't providing your food and shelter, you have a job to pay for that stuff.
Here would be a more correct statement: "Don't we appreciate what our great-great-great-great-grandmother did for us? Making sure our great-great-great-grandmother got fed and are kept clean? Don't we appreciate what she did for her? Shouldn't we spend our entire lives praising her for doing something for somebody else hundreds of years ago that indirectly caused that persons offspring to survive?" (That's not even entirely correct, because at least we know and can prove that our great-great-great-great-grandmother even EXISTED.)
And as far as I know, isn't the ultimate goal of paranthood to build a self-sufficient adult? But it would seem that god wants us to act like infants for all eternity.
If my child were to become disobedient and disregard certain laws , like say murder. I woudn't be
posting bail or trying to repeal the death penalty.
Another exaggeration. Most people aren't murderers. It's not as if god created me and then I became Hitler and started killing people, so he simply has no choice but to allow the higher authority to carry out justice and feels morally obligated to refuse to bail me out.
1st: I did nothing wrong.
2nd: It's his decision. There is no higher athority.
3rd: He's not very helpful.
I simply don't believe he exists. And he makes the rules.
So THIS would be a more accurate analogy:
If your child where to get amnesia and forget you existed. Would you:
A: Let him be, he's an adult, and aside from his amnesia he's actually doing pretty good?
B: Do everything in your power (God is omnipotent, so I'm sure he could find a way) to help him remember you and prove that you are his real parent?
C: Send some random strangers to tell him that he has forgot his mother, watch him wander around asking dozens of people if they can help him find you, all the while staying well hidden, and then kill him if he gives up the search? (He would have died eventually anyway right, what's it matter if you kill him a little early? Or my favorite: You created him, so he didn't have any special "Right" to life, therefore you are perfectly justified in killing him for no reason, as shown here *** w69 3/15 p. 191 Questions From Readers ***.)
The mental gymnastics required to make Yahweh look like the good guy is downright hilarious to an outsider. And also frightening.
Lore
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Narkissos
Once upon a time "worshipping" the gods meant servingthem very concretely, like subjects would serve a king, by offering them the best of food (sacrifices) and shelter (temples), servants, music, dance, even sex, all things they could need and/or enjoy. Symbolically of course, but that made "worship" quite lively and colourful, and meaningful inasmuch as it was central to, yet separated from, the everyday working of society.
At a certain stage of some particular civilisations the notion prevailed that the "gods" really didn't need or enjoy all that stuff. So "worship" became increasingly abstract -- the words in the songs, the meaning in the words, the intent in the meaning... Culminating, perhaps, in the semi-secularised notion that what the gods (or, the remaining "God") are really interested in is the detail of everybody's everyday life (especially from a moral angle).
I'm not sure that version of "worship" is really easier to believe than the old one. One thing about it, it is certainly duller.
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Ténébreux
I was just thinking of starting a thread on this very topic myself. I've never really understood the concept of "worship". I thought I did. But it's one of those words that we use all the time and never really stop to think about what it actually means. And when you do stop for a second to think about it, it starts to seem really absurd.
Every JW knows that the Kingdom Hall is their place of worship, they go there in order to worship God, they worship three times a week, in fact they are the only true worshippers, etc. What does it actually mean though? If you were to ask one of them to draw a picture of a JW who is in the act of worshipping God alongside one who is not, what would be the difference?
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fresia
Fresia: all he requires is to respect and obey those laws of love and unity for the benifit of all including himself.
Can't we show love and unity toward fellow humans even without a belief in God? Arguments over the nature and teachings of "God" actually divide people against each other and throw gasoline on the burning fire of warfare and international hatred.
no creator, no creator, no creator.
no laws no laws no laws.
do as you would, and yes they do as they do and look what has happened.
do as you want and they do and look what has happened.
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snowbird
I find it quite interesting that the words worship and worthy share the same root. The Creator alone is worthy of worship. No one and nothing else is. God doesn't need or want anything so badly that He has to kill in order to get it. He invites all to come to Him in humility and obedience. We can accept Him or reject Him. The choice is ours.
However, the notion that He is going to consign billions to everlasting destruction or everlasting torment is a manmade construct based on fear and loathing. Read the Bible again and again for the first time and you will find no such concept in its pages.
Snowbird
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shopaholic
God made man free moral agents
Exactly. One way to express our love for the creator is to live freely. Living a suppressed life yet always wanting more and denying yourself of your god-given talents and waiting for God to destroy everyone that doesn't follow the FDS is not worship. Its cruel and mental. We have amazing minds but to be told not to use them and to become a drone blindly following a religion is not worship.
I'm beginning to believe that worship is an organic process that we manifest by how we enjoy life and help other people. For instance, if you have a choice of mentoring/helping a homeless family get back on their feet vs. going door-to-door telling folks if they don't follow the FDS they will get destroyed, I see worship as helping the homeless family. If you have a choice of going to meetings 3X/week and learning religious teachings by rote vs experiencing the grandeur of the Andes (or even the Rocky Mountains), I see worship as experiencing the grandeur of creation.
Someone mentioned that worship, as most people know it, is purely a human concept. I couldn't agree more.
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theMartian
Most don't even know what worship IS!
It is simply showing the Highest Honor.
I don't think it's a question of Him wanting it so bad- as much as the fact that He DESERVES it!
(Like most on this board think THEY do! Heh!)