What is concept of worship? Why would God want it so bad? I don't get it. (page 4)

oompa

what if we function best as humans, and are happiest, if we worship or revere something greater outside of ourselves, i.e. God?

What if I never want to ever wipe my @ss and still be adored by all those around me? still dont get it.....oompa

oompa

Eclipse says:

But what mother or father, who is supposed to be loving, KILLS their children,
or their children's children, simply for being disobedient and imperfect?
Human parents are more forgiving. Human parents have a higher morality than god does, because killing is wrong.
Prove me wrong.

This is a very good and simple analogy. Yes, I want my kids to love me (but not worship me). But if they don't, there is nothing I can really do about it, except maybe kill them. If I kill them, then then that still does not change the fact that they did not love me, it only makes sure that they will NEVER be able to love me in the future.

can you worship without kneepads....oompa

Terry

Worship is man's natural reaction to God...IF...God has made him a certain way.

Otherwise, the man who experiences no reaction to God (or a negative one) is a vessal made for destruction.

In Romans 9 Paul goes on an on about God being like a Potter who makes some pots that aren't worth keeping and other pots that are worth using.

We are one pot or the other!

The vessal worthy of use reacts to God as a father and feels the overwhelming urge to put God at the center of life before all else.

Others, vessals unworthy and fit for destruction (badly made pots) feel very little and go about their broken-pottedness until destroyed.

Deputy Dog

eclipse

But what mother or father, who is supposed to be loving, KILLS their children,

Who told you that every human is a child of God?

John 8:42

So Jesus said to them, "If God were your* father, you* would love Me, for _I_ came forth and am come from God. For I have not come from Myself, _but_ that One sent Me.

John 8:43

"Why do you* not understand My speech? Because you* are not able to be hearing My word.

John 8:44

"You* are from the [or, your*] father the Devil, and the desires of your* father you* want to be doing. That one was a murderer from [the] beginning, and he has not stood in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he is speaking falsehood, out of his own he speaks, because he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 8:45

"But because _I_ speak the truth, you* are not believing Me.

John 8:46

"Who out of you* convicts Me concerning sin? But if I am speaking truth, why are you* not believing Me?

John 8:47

"The one being from God, the words of God he hears[or, pays attention to], for this reason you* do not hear, because you* are not from God."

Gopher

Snowbird: However, the notion that He is going to consign billions to everlasting destruction or everlasting torment is a manmade construct based on fear and loathing. Read the Bible again and again for the first time and you will find no such concept in its pages.

Snowbird, I must reluctantly but honestly disagree. (Except. I agree that the Bible doesn't teach everlasting torment.)

Didn't Jesus himself say "Broad and spacious is the road leading off to DESTRUCTION and many are the ones on it, whereas narrow and cramped is the road leading to everlasting life."

Between this and his analogy comparing his coming to "the days of Noah" where 99.9% of mankind were destroyed (if you take the Noachian story to be literally true), you see Jesus did indeed preach that billions will be consigned to destruction.

In fact this Scripture makes religious minorities like Jehovah's Witnesses say "see, it IS a narrow road to Life - and WE are the few on it".

Merry Magdalene

*What is a god?

Something or someone we believe can give us what we need and want, that we put our faith, hope and trust in, that we rely upon for fulfillment.

*What is worship?

What we do in the attempt to get our needs and wants met by our god or gods. This may include demonstrations of adoration, enthusiasm, commitment, devotion, the sacrifice of things, time, energy, effort, the following rules or specific steps to attainment.

We all have a god or gods, and we all worship. We can be our own god. Money can be our god. Beauty, fame, love, sex, food, other people, nature, various aspects of nature, can all be gods if we believe that they can fulfill our needs and desires. Such things have been personified in the past as otherworldly, superior beings, embodied in statues or geographical features. Not so much now. But the essential nature of gods and worship are still present in modern society, by the definitions given above.

In Islam, the word translated as "worship" is "'Ibadah."

Al-Fayrooz Abaadi said in his dictionary, Al-Qamoos Al-MuHeeT: “Al-‘Ibadah: Obedience”. Al-Tabari said in the Tafseer of the verse in Surat Al-Faatiha “Iyyaka Na’budoo” (You [alone] we worship): “Oh Allah, it is to You alone that we have Kushoo’, that we submit to, and that we depend on, acknowledging your Lordship over us, you alone and none other that you”.

The original meaning of ‘Ibadah with all the Arabs is “to lower one’s self”. It is also called “the path that is lowered due to feet stamping it down”, and “the travelers lowered it”. From this, a mule that is lowered for riding is called “Mu’abbad”, and from this a person who is enslaved is called a “’Abd”, due to his being lowered before his master.
....
Therefore, ‘Ibadah, with its vast and comprehensive implications, means: Obedience with submission, and lowering one’s self, and accepting being led by Allah, subhanahu wa ta’ala, in everything that He has ordered and everything that He has forbidden.

Worship, obedience, service, submission to our Creator is for our own good, as our Creator knows what is best for us.

He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul; but he that strays injures his own soul. --Qur'an 39:41

Many believe in such a Creator, in One God beyond all others, from Whom all things originated, with Whom the control of all things lies, and Who alone is worthy of our worship--our obedience, our devotion, our time and energy, our love, Who can truly fulfill all our needs and Who does require something of us, although not out of need or want. But not everyone believes this. So what proof can be offered?

I will not claim that by calling our universe and everything in it "creation" I have automatically proved that there must be a Creator. That would just be word games. We need to be a little more thoughtful about this. So, how should we proceed?

The scientific method is limited in that it can only deduce rules by repeated observations of physical phenomena. Thus the question of the existence of God does not and cannot fall into the realm of scientific thought because science deals with the mechanisms of events and phenomena within the universe i.e. the tangible and not intangible. To test the hypothesis to apply scientific proof for or against God, one would effectively have said that God is "testable".
Therefore, logically one would conclude God to be within the universe since God must be physically tangible in order to test. Since God is tangible and contained within the universe, God must be limited and therefore cannot be God. Thus scientists are falling into the same trap as the blind followers of religion, which is they are implicitly defining a role to God as the 'one who makes things work'. Since scientists have explained how things work the question of God does not arise. Those who argue from this angle have falsely assumed an attribute/essence of God in the same way Christians say God has a son or is love. To prove or disprove the existence of a creator we need to go beyond the limitations of the scientific method and proceed rationally for it is only rational thought which has the ability to deal with an issue like this.
....
The Rational Proof
When we look around at everything we can sense, these things share one factor, and that is that they are all limited. By limited we mean that they have restrictions, a starting point and an ending point, and they all have definable attributes, i.e. they are finite. Man is born and he dies. There is no one alive who will not die. During his life span, he will grow to a certain shape, height and volume. The universe is defined as all the celestial bodies and planets. All these objects have a certain mass, shape, volume and so on. The life span of a star may be very long, but a point in time will come when it will cease to exist.
The universe is large, but is still a 'finite' space. No scientist could ever prove using hard facts that the universe has no bounds. In fact when they say the universe arose from a Big Bang and is expanding they inherently admit it is finite in size, otherwise it could not expand! There is nothing in reality that is unlimited. No matter how hard we try, man is unable to find anything unlimited around him. All he can perceive is the finite and limited. A further attribute of everything around us is that they are all needy and dependent in order to continue existing. They are not self-sustaining or independent. Man has needs. He has to satisfy in order to survive. He has organic needs. Man must eat and drink if he is to survive. If he does not he will die. We see need and dependency in plants and animals. They depend on other parts of the food chain for existence. The water cycle is dependent on the sun, which is dependent on the laws of the galaxies and burning mass, and so on... Nothing man can perceive is self-subsistent. So things exist, but do not have the power of existence. They cannot control when they die or when other bodies die.
There is one fact that emerges from all this. If something is limited and finite, and does not have the power to be self-subsistent then it must have been created. Applying this to everything we see will bring us to a conclusion. If everything in the universe is created because it has not the power of being in existence on its own, and is finite and limited, then there must be a creator. This creator by contrast has to be unlimited and not needy and dependent on anything to bring it into, or sustain it's existence. The universe; the sum of all finite and dependent objects is finite and dependent - but dependent on what? Dependent on something to start and sustain life, and something to plan and develop life. The only rational and intellectual solution to the question of creation is that there is a creator who has accounted for all that we see and perceive. Ration tells us that nothing can be created without a creator. Ultimately there must be a creator who is unlimited every aspect. Some scientists challenge this with a theory that everything depends on something for existence, which in turn depends upon something for existence, and so on ad infinitum. This theory is irrational, as it does not explain how anything came into existence in the first place. It uses an idea of 'infinity' that we know does not exist in reality. It does not even make attempt, to explain the very first step in the sequence. It is illogical and incomplete in its theory, and far from being scientific. If at its basis the theory is weak, how possible to trust the proceeding theoretical argument for creation of the universe?
Conclusion
Hence, looking at any planet in the universe, contemplating on any phase of life, or comprehending any aspect of man provides a conclusive evidence for a Creator, what Muslims call Allah(SWT) - This intellectual proof of the existence of Allah(SWT) is an understanding open for everyone and obligatory for all Muslims to be convinced of. Each person must explore to the limit of his understanding. Blind belief has no place in Islam. -Believing through instinctive emotions is unreliable and dangerous as emotions can change and error to ones belief and actions. And if the basis of belief is irrational and weak, how can a system of life be built upon it.
--http://caliphate.eu/beliefs/proofgod.htm

What of worship and what our Creator may or may not require of us and desire from us? Do we need the guidance of a Supreme Being?

Mankind is driven to satisfy his organic needs and his instincts, and without any form of criterion for right and wrong surely he will go astray. The annals of history are full of man's oppression of man. Greed, selfishness, killing, monopoly, and vice are manifestations of man fulfilling his survival instinct. If man is prepared to go as far as killing others in satisfaction of his needs , then surely man is in need of control over his actions. Without a criterion for action the striving for satisfaction of mans needs will lead him to constant conflict with others. One man's freedom is anothers slavery. God has not left man to his own devices, man has never been free to undertake his life in which ever way he feels best. It is wholly consistent with our perception of man as being limited, dependant and imperfect, that for man to bring his own way, his own system, would be false, due to man's limited understanding of life. Man is always subject to bias, disparity, differences, contradictions and the influence of his current environment, hardly a basis for complete impartiality and absolute truth. Any man made system will suffer from these same bias, disparity, differences, contradictions and influence. The example of modern day politicians and their links with the business community serves as a reminder of how the supposedly impartial nature of the political function can be abused.
The religiousness instinct within man serves as a reminder to us of how mankind can be diverted from his true goal in life. History shows us many instances of man worshipping the Sun, Stars, Fire, Stone idols, and more recently books, writers, leaders and material things. Faced with this strong instinct of dependence/sanctification man strives to satisfy this need, but without a system or clear guidance in this matter purely intuitive or instinctive acts of worship have led man astray. Man must use his mind to establish the source of the correct form of sanctification/worship. It is not possible for a limited being to comprehend an unlimited being, therefore the Creator has given mankind communication through a channel that is clear for him. God has sent Prophets and Messengers (Prophets with the divine law) to mankind to give guidance in all of our affairs.
--http://caliphate.eu/beliefs/messengers.htm

The discussion regarding the conclusive proof of the existence of god, even once one concludes that He undoubtedly exists is really not a religious discussion. It does not necessitate that one become a Muslim, a Christian or a follower of any faith, merely that one believes an unlimited Creator exists.
The question regarding which religion, if any, is the correct religion or the truth, is a question of whether God revealed anything to mankind or not. Did He pass to us a message by which to live and if so how do we authenticate this?
It is supposed by advocators of mainstream religions that the Creator did indeed send revelation to us over the course of history. The method of revelation was a message to one from amongst the people, a man who proved that he was a messenger of god to the populace by the performance of a miracle[s]. We know their names, Musa, Isa, Muhammad, Ibrahim and so on.
Naturally if any man claimed to be a messenger the people would not believe him simply on his word. Most people would harbour a healthy amount of scepticism to the claim. If however the same man performed a miracle the same people would then believe him. By miracle what is meant is the clear and obvious breaking of the natural laws of the universe, such that an unheard of and totally unnatural occurrence is observed.
One good definition of miracle: "An event that appears so inexplicable by the laws of nature, that it is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God."

Any sincere and intelligent man who witnessed Isa give life to the dead and heal with just a touch, or saw Ibrahim emerge from the raging fire unharmed would believe they were indeed, as they claimed to be, messengers of God. There is no other explanation for a miracle, an event which defies the laws of nature, the only possibility is that it occurs by the permission of the Creator. As there is no other possibility this reason must be true, it must be the cause for the effect witnessed. A problem arises because these miracles are lost in time. Millennia later how are human beings in the 21 st century to believe such events did occur?
Miracles have been reported to us in textual accounts such as those found in the new testament and the old testament. The problem with books like the Torah and the Inj'eel ... is that they have undoubtedly been subject to alteration over the course of history. There exist very different versions of the same books. This is proof that they have been altered by human beings from their original versions. So the report of Isa walking upon water in the Inj'eel is not something we can believe in as it may be fabricated. It becomes a matter of faith not belief. If the books mentioned were indeed the very revelation sent to Musa or Isa then we would find:
1) Every version would be identical. Any alteration over time would manifest as different forms of the book.
2) There would be some way to authenticate that the book actually is the original. Otherwise how can anyone know the book they hold is really the revelation of a messenger?
It is worth mentioning that all Muslims believe in the revealed books as part of their Aqueedah [belief] as well as the Qur'an. These books are the Torah , Inj'eel and the Psalms of Dawud. Muslims believe that these books were revealed by God but their integrity has been compromised over time as mentioned. The reason they have definite belief in their revelation is because the Qur'an details this and there exists a unique method to verifying the authenticity of the Qur'an which is only applicable to it
This is the same reason Muslims believe in some of the miracles of the previous prophets. They may be lost in time but those miracles that are mentioned in the Qur'an can be believed in as long as one is aware as to how the Qu'ran is the word of God and how its authenticity can be verified.
Muhammad was the final messenger of God and the foremost miracle he brought is the Qur'an itself. The consequences of this are important.
1) As a miracle is a breaking of natural law, they are by definition inimitable by man. This means someone may not alter the Qur'an or insert in additional sections as its style is inimitable and the human made elements would immediately become apparent to someone with mastery of Arabic language.
2) If the Qur'an itself is miraculous in nature then it means the Muslims of today are in possession of a timeless miracle; a miracle that can validate the correctness of Islam at any time, not only around the time of revelation.
However the teachings of Islam can only be believed in today if the miraculous nature of the Qur'an can be understood by any individual of this current age. If its miraculous nature can be understood intellectually then there is no need for the people of the 21 st century to have 'faith' in corrupted books or to simply follow the religion of their forefathers. Human beings of this age have often rejected religion because of there lack of evidence and definite proof. Preaching to faith or following tradition is not required in such times. What is required is that mankind understands the proof behind the Creator's final revelation and its timeless aspect.
It can only make sense that if Islam was indeed the last religion revealed from God that in His wisdom, its proof would be such that any person could understand its proof from the time of revelation to Muhammad until the last day. Otherwise God would have indeed have left men to faith and their own devices as some believe. This is not the reality as will be seen.

It is worth noting that the miracles brought by the previous prophets and messengers came as challenges to the people of the time. At the time of Ibrahim there existed many fire worshippers. Yet when he was plunged into the inferno their fire did not burn him. Clearly his God had mastery over the very attributes of the thing they worshipped. At the time of Musa they ruler in the land was the tyrant Fir'awn . In his entourage were a group of illusionists who often performed their tricks in his court. By the will of God Musa's staff transformed into a snake, which consumed their own staffs. The illusionists who were masters of deception new full well that this was no mere trick and understood it must be from God. Similarly in the time of Isa skill in healing and medicine was respected greatly, and Isa was able to cure the diseased with a touch and restore life with a touch where once there had been death.
The Arabs at the time of the Qur'an's revelation were enamoured of poetry. They praised one another, admonished and even debated in poetry. Their poets were esteemed members of Makkan society. In Ukaz there took place an annual market where poets would compete in eloquence, the champion's poetry would be hung from the door of the Ka'bah itself.
When Muhammad brought the Qur'an, it was obvious to these people who were masters of Arabic that it was a supernatural phenomenon. For these people whose mastery of Arabic was it its peak could not match its eloquence, its sublime beauty.

It is worth noting that it cannot be argued that eloquence of language is a subjective phenomenon, and thus judging whether the Qur'anic challenge has been met is a subjective matter. This is because there are rules pertaining to grammar and expression in Arabic and indeed any other language, and it is these rules the Qur'an alone transcends. Examination of any given work and its level of excellence with regards to such rules is an objective matter for one with sufficient mastery of the language.
Eloquence, beauty, rhetoric, structure, rhythm, rhyme, grammar, clarity, depth. These are some of the attributes sought for in Arabic poetry, prose and rhymed prose. These were the then three existent styles of artistic expression in Arabic. Also amongst the attributes superlatives are sought in are the number of words used to convey [less is superior] and their depth, coherence, consistency, symmetry and force.
It was impossible for the poets to write verses in Arabic that peaked in each and every considered category all at once. Inevitably quality in on or a few attributes would be at the expense of quality in some of the others. This is a normal rule of any language. The Qur'an when it arrived produced a fourth category of its own. In each and every sura the very highest level of every attribute was achieved all at once. The Qur'an was renowned for its ability to covey an extraordinary depth of meaning in just a few words. All while maintaining excellence in all characteristics of the language. It was in a league of its own, a league no man could produce even one small piece of in the same style.

The sincere and deep man who scrutinises the miracle of the Qur'an will easily arrive at the realisation that mankind is in possession of a perfectly preserved codex of revelation from his Creator. This book, the Qur'an is the only such book in the world today. It explains clearly how all of mankind must live their lives and organise their societies. It teaches him right from wrong and gives us knowledge of life after death and creation that we would otherwise never know. It directs us in each and every one of our personal matters, our family issues, from how we pray and clean ourselves to the relationships between nations and how a state governs itself.
--http://caliphate.eu/beliefs/proofquran.htm

In the Qur'an, the many benefits of worship/humble obedience, or 'Ibadah, are made clear. Here is one which touches my heart, being linked with kindness to aging parents:

Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour. And, out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility, and say: "My Lord! bestow on them thy Mercy even as they cherished me in childhood." --Qur'an 17:23,24

I invite everyone to investigate the claims of Islam that there is a Creator, that our Creator has given us the best guidance for this life, and that worship/obedience/submission to our Creator brings the best benefit.

We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious. And what is there to keep back men from believing, now that Guidance has come to them, nor from praying for forgiveness from their Lord, but that (they ask that) the ways of the ancients be repeated with them, or the Wrath be brought to them face to face?
--Qur'an 18:54, 55

~Merry

Gopher

MerryMagdalene: *What is a god? Something or someone we believe can give us what we need and want, that we put our faith, hope and trust in, that we rely upon for fulfillment.............
We all have a god or gods, and we all worship. We can be our own god. Money can be our god. Beauty, fame, love, sex, food, other people, nature, various aspects of nature, can all be gods if we believe that they can fulfill our needs and desires.

That is an interesting definition of a god. It's different from anything I've ever heard.

As an atheist, I choose not to believe in an external force or being for reward or hope or any such thing. So to say that we ALL have a god, and we ALL worship is not categorically true in my opinion.

Do atheists like me worship themselves? By your definition of a god, maybe. Because we trust in ourselves to provide our needs and wants. Or maybe we trust in our mates and loved ones to do so, so we'd be worshipping them, perhaps?

I think that definition of god is too broad. To me a god is someone external and most likely unseen (because some people make idols their god), who is vastly superior who has extraordinary power and influence in life, to whom reverence and awe is given.

I don't claim that to be a perfect definition, but it is more accurate than the one you cited IMHO. So if you use my definition, at this point in life I don't have a god.

oompa

Tenbux says:

Every JW knows that the Kingdom Hall is their place of worship, they go there in order to worship God, they worship three times a week, in fact they are the only true worshippers, etc. What does it actually mean though? If you were to ask one of them to draw a picture of a JW who is in the act of worshipping God alongside one who is not, what would be the difference?

This is kind of what I used to try and feel. Another poster mentioned snotty, loud singing, arm waving people that where at the time "worshiping". But at the Hall, I'm sitting there for thousands of hours listening, just listening (to people drone on and on), and I did not feel giving this worship. Cleaning the Hall toilet, there you go God, I just worshiped you, same for vacuuming. And of course, the real worship, knocking on doors, selling literature, and reading Scriptures to others, hell I was not actually THINKING about or to God during any of this! It seems worship is more like thoughts in the brain to me that somehow God is dying to hear/see/feel.

Snowbird says:

God doesn't need or want anything so badly that He has to kill in order to get it. He invites all to come to Him in humility and obedience. We can accept Him or reject Him. The choice is ours.

What the Hey SB? There are only a few thousand years of recorded history in the old test. that shows how God deals with mankind. What did he do or have done to those people who just happend to be nearby the the Jews? Whack, whack, whack. Can you say 185,000 Assyrians whacked in just one night? That was mercifully done by an angel rather the the hacking and raping he let the Jews do to people that did not have the option of accepting Jehovah.

trying so hard...can I....harder....YES!....I think I just worshiped something.....oompa

snowbird

Gopher, you have a pm.
oompa, let's keep on trying.
Snowbird

What is concept of worship? Why would God want it so bad? I don't get it.

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