YK on WT UN NGO STATUS
It sounds to me like you are making an argument that you don't have to be a JW to be saved, and that the JW's themselves do not sole possesion of "the truth", for to be a JW, you MUST follow the F&DS.
Can you explain what you meant by that statement?
There is a difference between following the leadership of men and following men with awe and reverence to the exclusion of God and Christ. Paul, for instance, urged Christians to follow his personal example but he condemned those Corinthians who said that they "belonged to Paul." So, granted, it is a very thin line between loyalty and idolotry.
The faithful slave is merely an instrument that God uses to help sincere people come to know his will and purpose. But God expects each one of us to develop spiritually so that we can eventually stand on our own. I think at some point the Watchtower will go down for a period so that we will have no choice but to stand before God---individually. That sort of test will of course come during the most turbulent period in history---during a holocaust-like condition. In the end it should be viewed as a privilege to demonstrate to God that we have the same sort of faith that can stay the force of fire and stop the mouths of lions. The Watchtower has instilled that faith in millions of people I hope, but of course, faith has to be tested by fire. As I have said, it appears as if the fires are finally beginning to get stoked up for that very purpose. / You Know
I appreciate your comments. It is interesting to read your thoughts when you present them this way rather than with great bluster and insults, which justs makes you sound silly.
So, here I am, sitting at my computer. I am open minded, believe it or not.
I once believed in Jehovah and lived my life as a celibate homosexual man. Then through various stumbling due to doctrine, behavior of people, behavior of the society, etc. etc. etc. I stopped believing in Jehovah and began to practice homosexuality and basically became a deist, taoist, pantheist who does believe in a unifying power in the universe but does not believe in Jehovah or Allah or any personalized god. My worship is directed to trying to follow Matthew 7:12, but even of this I fail miserably on occasion.
So, I watch you and the others here and read what you have to say and react to it and I read the Bible and the Watchtower and Awake and study religious thought and philosophy and I wonder daily whether Jehovah exists. I visit the personal web page of a kind hearted witness sister today and begin to cry while listening to the sound clip of a Kingdom song she has playing there. I wonder almost continually, where is there truth, where is God?
I see no distinguishing marks on those who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses that would classify them as a special group. I just don't see it. So, how does association with them constitute not giving up on Jehovah? Proof that they are his slave? Doctrines? Organizational Structure? Behavior?
Lets say I give you that Jehovah God exists, a personal God as described in the Bible. You mention Moses in your example. Okay, well Moses was chosen and the Hebrews were chosen because of the actions of Abraham. Abraham was faithful, his descendents were not. On what basis has a similar choice been made in regard to the Watchtower? I ask the question honestly. You have made the comparison. Basically you are saying that they are chosen but have messed up in this case and in other cases, but that is irrelevant since they are still chosen. Please explain.
Surely then, the Watchtower Society is nothing more than a usurper of hearts? There is no place for an "Earthly organisation" to be found in the Bible, why do you not just believe in the scriptures and simply act accordingly, why do you need this link to the WTBTS?
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be....
How exactly will God test with fire?
On what will the decision rest as to whether each person is "faithful" or not?
I appreciate your comments, YK. As for the question why we "need" an organization, it is for the same reason the individual Jew needed the Temple and the synagogue. It is for the same reason the individual Christian needed the Congregation and its arrangement. It is because God set it up that way, for His worship to be an organized, arranged worship.
Hillel said: "Do not separate yourself from the community." (Pirkei Avot 2:5). Hillel was a Jewish teacher, but you can find the same sentiments in the New Testament.
How exactly will God test with fire? On what will the decision rest as to whether each person is "faithful" or not?
The ultimate firey test will be when this system comes crashing down. Since it is highly likey that it will come down in a way that we have not anticipated it will cause a great deal of confusion and consternation amoung Jehovah's Witnesses. If, in conjunction with that, the Watchtower is unable to publish due to the global financial collapse and chaos, the congregations would be left to fend for themselves during that critical time. I expect the surviving governments to become obscenely tyrannical so that it will become nearly impossible to live by faith and not compromise. But those who stay true to their faith will survive. Jesus said that those sheep who are separated out from the goats will be those who remain loyal to his embattled brothers during the time of their hardships and persecutions. / You Know
You Know said:
"The faithful slave is merely an instrument that God uses to help sincere people come to know his will and purpose. But God expects each one of us to develop spiritually so that we can eventually stand on our own. "
Let's assume that the F&DS are an instrument of God and he uses them to help sincere people come to know his will and purpose for a minute.
Can you explain this one:
Why would God allow people that have come to him via the F&DS to be disfellowshipped for matters that, at the time of disfellowship, were 'not the current light' but have since been changed by the F&DS to be the 'current light'? And, even though their past 'sins' are now ok in the eyes of the F&DS, they have received no appology, nor have they been re-instated..
Why would god persecute his followers that he is hoping will eventually be able to stand apart from the F&DS knowing full well that the 'light' he would eventually shed on the F&DS would agree with those followers?
Those followers that were DF'd are standing on their own.. Is it possible that the DF (apostate as you call them) are actually more spiritually mature than current Witnesses, and that, according to your above criteria, is what God wants.. He wants them to stand on their own, have a mind of their own, stop following the man-made laws of the F&DS slave, and the apostate is the culmination of what God really wants for his people?
By your arguments, is it possible that the Apostates have grown far enough along the ladder of spirituality that they no longer need the F&DS, while active JW's just haven't progressed that far yet?
Because, I dont' understand how you can say in one breath that God wants his people to stand on their own and be spiritually mature, when we all know that the F&DS demands 100% loyalty and subjection, no matter how unscriptural or illogical the rule may be.. (Not to mention that the rule may change tommorrow)
I would love to hear your comments, maybe I've misunderstood what you just said, or maybe there is a logical explanation for it that I am missing...
Hello my friend.
It seems for the most part that the whole affair is a
tempest in a teapot. I say this, not because it is not
a serious mis-step on the part of the Society, but
because it is not widely known by the majority of
I’m sorry that you see the NGO thing as “a serious mis-step on the part of the Society”. I, personally, find no fault whatsoever with the actions of the WTS … either with being an NGO or withdrawing as such once it became obvious (due to exposure by apostate enemies) that it would no longer be useful to remain “associated” as an NGO. Looks like the apostates do at times hurt the Society’s cause. The apostates, via their enquiry’s with the NGO officials, were in the process of traitoriously forcing the UN to focus in on the Society’s being listed as an NGO while at the same time obviously never intending to abide by the requirements of being such an “associate”.
As for what may have motivated the brothers at the
Watchtower get involved with the UN in the first place
as an officially recognized Non-Governmental
Organization, it seems to me that the Society is
suffering from the bane of all civilization; namely,
too many lawyers.
I, personally, would much rather give the Brothers who oversee the worldwide organization the benefit of the doubt. The Society has the right and responsibility to use strategy in the best interests of the preaching work, and looking after the interests of true worship throughout the earth.
Ironically, by trying to protect the
Society’s interests, in that human sort of way, they
have inadvertently placed a stumbling block before
their own brothers.
Yes, there very well may be some (and apparently already has been) that are stumbled due to this recent revelation. However, in the finality each JW must decide which side they are going to be on, and there are only TWO opposing sides, … either the side of those who spearhead the disciple-making work, namely the FDS, or the side of "the world". (John 15:19) Those who spearhead the work are “holy” by the Bible’s definition. Yes such holy ones aren’t perfect, but this certainly isn’t a case of their having been unwise, nor unholy. It is regretable that some will be made to stumble over this. These, undoubtedly, are those who weren’t well founded in the truth as of yet, either that or they were not of our sort to begin with. Also we shouldn’t forget, Jesus said that causes for stumbling is unavoidable. Those who truly were his disciples will eventually return to the flock, the congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Where else do such true disciples have to go?
Obviously they have recognized the
inadvisability of being connected with the UN, which
is why they have evidently withdrawn from association.
I respectfully disagree with your deduction, as a matter of fact fervently so. As I’ve already suggested: The Society has the right and responsibility to use strategy in the best interests of the preaching work, and looking after the interests of true worship throughout the earth. They … even as the nations do without being faulted … are completely justified in the use of clandestine maneuvers when it comes to spiritual warfare. There are several examples of God’s people having engaged in such procedures throughout the Scriptures. If any among us tend to be offended by the use of such strategy, is it not THOSE ones that need to study their Bibles and become mature Christians? I would answer, yes it is.
Just a few thoughts that I felt you might want to consider. I know that you're mature enough to handle them, as based upon all the past posts that I've read which you've authored.—lefty.
What does "true to your faith" mean?
What does "loyal to your brothers" mean?
On what issue will people be asked to compromise?