Need LOGICAL PRESENTATION that FDS is BS- talk w/2 elders wanting to help

by AWAKE&WATCHING 39 Replies latest jw friends

  • BFD
    BFD

    I have so much respect for you A&W, and I know you are going to do really well with them. Your motivation is pure and I only hope you are not disappointed. imo, I think it would be great if more faithful JWs faced up to the organization rather than did a fade. It might just speed up the exodus from the cult.

    I don't pretend to find myself in this particular situation but, from the outside looking in it seems fading prolongs the pain and thus the inevitable. It sucks. It will still suck in a year from now unless you move away from it. Too bad in many situations "it" are life long friends and, worse familiy members.

    I admire your strength and honesty. It is commendable.

    BFD

  • AWAKE&WATCHING
    AWAKE&WATCHING

    I just read all these replies and I am ready to cry, you guys are just awesome, loving, kind, helpful people,( even that ATHEIST guy).

    On the one hand they say that they are God's chanel and that what they say and do is from God, but then when "prophisies" don't come true they say that they are just men and make mistakes. How are the faithfull JW's suppost to know when they are speaking for God and when they are just being imperfect men

    The above quote is one of the main things I want to stick with because that is really where I started. How can I make them see that they (FDS) can't claim God is speaking to them and directing them until something is proven wrong and then claim "We're only human." ? It's just so contradictory and they can't see it.

    Thank you all so much.

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    A meeting with two elders is a confrontation . . . and an unfriendly one. Any time I'm in an unfriendly confrontation, I take control and keep it. With a Witness I stay away from the Bible, away from religious comparisons, and away from doctrine.

    I go to behaviors. I keep control of the meeting by flipping.

    I have one answer if I don't want to tell them anything and stay out of trouble with them. Whatever question they ask me I say: "I agree with the Watchtower on that." If they ask me what I mean . . . let the games begin.


  • flipper
    flipper

    Awake- I would use common sense with them and stay away from the bible. Stick to subjects you know are true, like the child molestation settlements, cocrete things which show that the society is a crock of $$hit. However if you have family in the org. you want to stay in touch with, choose your words carefully. Anything you say can or will be used against you in the elders judicial court of law

  • Terry
    Terry

    I see things a bit differently here.

    First things first.

    What is your bottom line purpose in going through the pointless exercise of duking it out when outnumbered? Two against one is not a fair fight and YOU WON'T WIN.

    Why would a sane, intelligent, rational person want to be left bleeding in an alley?

    I ask what your PURPOSE is. Think about it. The one you give in your premise is silly. When elders are in offensive mode you'll not impress them with anything you say other than your apostacy.

    Elders want to goad you into demonstrating you are REBELLIOUS.

    You cannot playact and get away with it. If you did you'd be a lying coward. Is that your purpose?

    What if your purpose is to chop them off at the kneecaps? Do you think they will let you? No. You'll be seen as rude and ungracious and rebellious. Period.

    What does that leave you? Nothing.

    All you have to do is avoid the confrontation with a smile and these words, "I'm doing honest research like the bible commends. "Keep testing whether you are in the faith; keep proving what you yourselves are."

    "My relationship with Jehovah is deeply PERSONAL. I am not ready to talk about it yet." Thanks for asking, though.

    Just say no. And be firm.

    Think of it as though you are a girl on a date and your boyfriend is trying to stick his hand up your dress.

    Be firm, polite and stick to your avoidance.

    When I was disfellowshipped it was only because I showed up and talked to the elders. It never entered my mind that I DIDN'T HAVE TO TALK TO THEM! But, I did show up and I answered their questions honestly. Boom! I was as dead as a beaver hat!

  • JWdaughter
    JWdaughter

    Hi, good for you! I am glad you are well and truly out of it in your heart. I hope you are willing to be well and truly out of it in fact. That being said, my personal experience with the elders came when I was 15. I don't remember details, but impressions I have that I can share are these:

    They really don't care what your reasons are. They will want to know the sources of your information. More so than your actual information(which they will not care to listen to). This will be magically transformed into an ad hominem attack that will question HOW you found out these things and then they will question how many wicked and evil acts you are now into since you no longer (obviously) love jehovah.

    My suggestion to you is that you tell them why YOU think it is BS. All the info you may get is great, but the reasons YOU chose to leave are what matter. If you need to get documentation to show them, great, but don't reinvent YOUR wheel. You know why YOU think it is BS and what initially drew you away. If you think you need to tell them, be honest and just tell them what did it for you. Don't let them get you twisted around into a defensive mode OR an offensive mode. Just the facts, be honest and be as caring as you are.

    Oh, they will really be interested in further investigating what naughtiness has driven you away. Your heart condition will be called into question, as well as your morals, personal integrity and intelligence.

    It will be brought out that in spite of how imperfect men are in the org. (all the guys at Bethel, the GB, elders, MS, and R+F members, that they are ONLY ones teaching the good news of the Bible. That they are the only ones teaching the TRUTH and that Jehovah is working through the org. Peter and other apostle made mistakes, etc etc. That is what you are in for.

    I wish you well!

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Key to proving that the FDS doctrine is wrong is the Watchtower makes he claim that in Christian times Jesus established a Faithful and Discreet Slave to look after his Organization and that the Slave has continued uninterrupted for the last 1900 years and will do so until Armageddon.

    “In this regard, the book God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached stated: "As to just how the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ class existed and served down through the centuries after the death of the apostles of the Master Jesus Christ, we do not have a distinct historical picture. Apparently one generation of the ‘slave’ class fed the next succeeding generation thereof. (2 Timothy 2:2)” Watchtower 1995 May 15 p.16

    “Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that this parable pertains to the one true congregation of Jesus Christ’s anointed followers. Beginning with Pentecost, 33 C.E., and continuing through the 19 centuries since then, this slavelike congregation has been feeding its members spiritually, doing so faithfully and discreetly…. the one approved channel representing God’s kingdom on earth in the “time of the end.”” Watchtower 1981 March 1 p.24 Do You Appreciate the “Faithful and Discreet Slave?

    If that is the case, who was the slave prior to Russell? No one has ever believed all the key things that Russell preached!

    For a group to be classified as part of the Slave it is unnecessary for them to have understood and taught every current Witness doctrine, such as the Great Crowd and end time prophecies. However there are several key teachings that they must hold to. When researching this topic for the writing department in the 1990’s, Carl Adams gave Barbara Anderson[1] four criteria to identify the slave by:

    o rejection of the Trinity

    o rejection of hellfire

    o rejection of immortality of the human soul

    o acceptance of the ransom sacrifice of Christ as defined by Jehovah’s Witnesses

    She was unable to find any group to satisfy this short list. The result is that the Proclaimers book was reduced to making the following broad statement:

    “Throughout the centuries there have always been truth lovers. To mention just a few: John Wycliffe (c. 1330-1384) and William Tyndale (c. 1494-1536) furthered the work of Bible translation even at the risk of their life or freedom. Wolfgang Fabricius Capito (1478-1541), Martin Cellarius (1499-1564), Johannes Campanus (c. 1500-1575), and Thomas Emlyn (1663-c. 1741) accepted the Bible as God’s Word and rejected the Trinity. Henry Grew (1781-1862) and George Storrs (1796-1879) not only accepted the Bible and rejected the Trinity but also expressed appreciation for the ransom sacrifice of Christ.Although we cannot positively identify any of such persons as “the wheat” of Jesus’ illustration, certainly “Jehovah knows those who belong to him.”” Proclaimers p.44

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [1] The Discoveries of Barbara Anderson as displayed at jwfacts.com/index_files/Anderson.doc

    The common Christian understanding is that congregational ministers constitute the Slave.

    “Some state that the “slave” refers to Christian ministers, or their office of oversight, with responsibility to care for the spiritual needs of the congregation. The ‘master’s’ arrival is said to be either the second coming of Christ or the death of the individual minister. Thus it is held that the parable should motivate Christian ministers to care well for what is entrusted to them.” Watchtower 1981 Mar. 1 p.24

    In line with this 1 Corinthians 4:1-2 says; “Let a man so appraise us as being subordinates of Christ and stewards of sacred secrets of God. Besides, in this case, what is looked for in stewards is for a man to be found faithful.”

    This is not the Watchtower understanding. Vagueness of a parable allows an interpreter, with little effort, to present a range of preconceived notions, highlighted by four changes to this Watchtower Doctrine. Originally, Russell said the Slave was an illustration of the “little flock”. Then application was to a single person, Pastor Russell, immediately prior to the Second Coming.

    “However much we might endeavor to apply this figure to the Lord's people collectively, the fact would still remain that the various items stated would not fit to a company of individuals.” Zion’s Watch Tower 1904 Apr. 15 p.125

    “Thousands of the readers of Pastor Russell's writings believe that he filled the office of “that faithful and wise servant,” and that his great work was giving to the Household of Faith meat in due season. His modesty and humility precluded him from openly claiming this title, but he admitted as much in private conversation.” Watch Tower 1916 Dec. 1 p.356

    With Russell’s death in 1916, a new interpretation became necessary. In the 1922 booklet The Parable of the Penny Rutherford was described as the Faithful Steward (Slave). Finally, in 1927 Rutherford explained that the Slave was not a person but a group of people - Jesus and the 144,000.
    “Seeing then that The Servant of Jehovah is The Christ, and that The Christ is composed of Jesus and the faithful members of his body, we find it proper to apply the term “Servant” to Jesus Christ alone or to Jesus Christ and the members of his body collectively as one; and sometimes it is applied only to the members of the body of Christ yet on earth.” Watchtower 1927 Feb. 15 p.53

    Refinements to this interpretation have resulted convolution of the current understanding. The current Watchtower understanding describes this single Slave as a class of people that feed the same class of people! Confusingly, the slave and the domestics are both the same group of people. The 144,000 anointed ones are the slave as a whole, yet individually the same 144,000 are the domestics that as a group they rule over. The 144,000 feed the 144,000. The rest of Jehovah’s Witnesses and worldly people supposedly are not directly part of this parable, as explained in the following article.

    “If all the anointed as a group, no matter where on earth they live, are members of the slave class, who are the “domestics”? They are the same anointed ones but considered from a different viewpoint—as individuals. Yes, as individuals they would be of the “slave” or they would be “domestics,” depending on whether they were dispensing spiritual food or partaking of it. To illustrate: As recorded at 2 Peter 3:15, 16, the apostle Peter makes reference to Paul’s letters. When reading them, Peter would be as one of the domestics feeding on the spiritual food provided by Paul as a representative of the slave class.” Watchtower 1995 May 15 p.16
    Not only is this bizarre concept unnecessarily confusing, in reality the Watchtower Society does not operate this way. The majority of the 144,000 do not contribute to the doctrines, rules and procedures of the organization. The Governing Body has total say in what the sheep fed upon, and they alone provide spiritual food and doctrine. In fact, the Other Sheep write most articles, which are then authorised by the Governing Body.


    “4. Those used as writers must be dedicated, baptized brothers or sisters in good standing with their local congregations and who have writing ability. They should be exemplary, modest, not inclined to talk loosely to others about their writing activity. ... 5. PREPARING MATERIAL: The subjects on which articles may be written are quite varied. Some articles will deal with spiritual matters, and these should be written by brothers.” Branch Organization Manual p.24-1 Paragraph 4
    The Governing Body consists of between ten and twenty Anointed men. When the Watchtower says to follow the “faithful and discreet slave” the majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses understand this to mean following the rules of the Governing Body, as these members have final say in directing the Organization today.

    For a list of historical religions most similar to JWs see http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/slave.htm None of them come close to being acceptable to being considered the Slave.

  • Threestars
    Threestars

    I was DFed because I was honest at my JC. I'm not saying to "lie" however be very cautious in what you say--especially if you have family still in.

  • sass_my_frass
    sass_my_frass

    What are you going to say when you get the inevitable question: "Do you believe that the F&DS is Jehovah's representative on earth?"?

    This visit will start out, to them, as a shepherding call and end up a fact-finding mission for a judicial committee. I don't think you understand how brutal it is going to become for you.

  • lisavegas420
    lisavegas420

    Is there someone you can take with you for moral support?

    Why not insist that you want someone there with you...maybe you're attorney, or bff?

    lisa

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