Need LOGICAL PRESENTATION that FDS is BS- talk w/2 elders wanting to help

AWAKE&WATCHING

My best friend showed up where I work to see what's going on with me. I haven't called her since she told an elder at my hall that I was falling out of the truth, little does she know I've fallen and I don't want to get up.(Refused to talk to him.) I had told her I had "concerns" and needed to do research.

I told her I had now done my research and I absolutely don't believe it. She said she didn't want to hear my apostate stuff. I said then I really had nothing to say because I don't believe this is the truth. Long story short she ended up listening to me for 4 hours! I covered it all, not "God's channel", protected pedophiles, U.N./N.G.O., Malawi/Mexico, there's a reason they don't want us on the internet, 1975(which she was around for), false prophecies, flip-flops, yadda yadda yadda.

I no longer care about being disfellowshipped and have agreed to talk to 2 elders from her hall, I know them both well. My mission is to plant some seeds of doubt or water what might already be there.

I want to stick to WTBTS publications and just a point or two, i.e. false prophecies and flip-flops, and "God's channel". What should I do? I'd appreciate anything you all can do to help me.

Please refer me to threads or lists or sites or spell it out for me however you want.

THANKS! Robin P.S. My head is spinning.

besty

stick with matters of established fact such as

586/7 BCE as the date for Jerusalems's destruction,

the California settlement in contrast to their criticism of other religions with pedophile problems,

and the identifying hallmarks of a mind-control cult

changeling

I hope you really mean it when you say you don't want to be DF'd. You are really sticking your neck out. Be careful.

changeling

bigdreaux

my 2 favorites are www.jwfacts.com and www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com both are well written and give you lots of valuable info.

on a side note, congratulations on being at this point, where they can no longer scare you.

return visitor

I hope you don't have any family that you want to stay in touch with who are in the Borg. That being said, what I would love to question an elder about is this:

On the one hand they say that they are God's chanel and that what they say and do is from God, but then when "prophisies" don't come true they say that they are just men and make mistakes. How are the faithfull JW's suppost to know when they are speaking for God and when they are just being imperfect men. Example: Disfellowshipping, is that God's will or are they just bing imperfect men, will that change in the future too. Are lives being destroyed now as a result.

I know what I think,

Lowly Villager

FreeWilly

Here are a couple of FDS topics that hit home with me.

God has always had an organization (the FDS)

If this is true, who did Charles Taze Russell learn the truth from? Was it the FDS before him?

If this is true why did Jehoobah entrust the Catholic Church to decide the Bible Canon? Shouldn't that have been the FDS job?

If this is true, who was the FDS 500 years ago? 1000 years ago?

Ask: Can you name any christian group in history before Russell who were the FDS?

The Annointed Remnant (FDS) is directed by Jehoobah

Ask if God really does guide the annointed remnant? If so, how do the annointed remnant communicate with Brooklyn so that their insight is included into the publications?

The reality is that Brooklyn is in charge and the annointed remnant ( the old "annointed ones' scattered throughout the worlds congregations) have no input at all into what is published. In fact this annointed remnant learned about doctrinal changes - such as the new interpretation of a "generation" - just like the rest of JW's... when the received their WT in the mail! Just ask any dear old annointed one if they have any say in Brooklyn - It's a sham.

False predictions (remember to say "predictions", not prophecy)

If the FDS is directed by Jehoobah, how did they come up with all of these false dates and teachings? If they didn't come from God then who?

It's a Parable!!

And Finally, have them open up to the scripture and simply read it. It talks about a slave who could do good, or bad and gives a lesson for each choice. No "class" of people mentioned. No dual meaning.

Ask them why none of the other Bible writers referred to themselves or this scripture in this manner?

-FW

serotonin_wraith

I don't think it's possible to make a dent in their beliefs. Some key words thrown in during their chat after they leave you will keep them brainwashed. 'Weak', 'Apostate', 'Armageddon', 'Faith' etc.

As far as they're concerned, their leaders can do no wrong. They won't even look into what you're saying (I expect they've heard it before at some point).

This is a suggestion and I'm not sure how well it will work, but why not just put in simple terms what they believe. "I'm sorry, but I can't believe an invisible man in the sky breathed into dust to make the first human, and that there's a big invisible dragon flying around the Earth trying to turn people away from this invisible man. Anyone who could believe such rubbish is obviously brainwashed (mention traits of cults then?)"

Or if you're not an atheist, consider that sentence yourself. :)

Gopher

I offer this thought -- the Bible says no man is qualified to lead us. Not even if they're telling the truth.

Psalms 146:3-5: 3 Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. 4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish. 5 Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob for his help, Whose hope is in Jehovah his God

No man (or group of men in any religion) can be trusted in place of God, if you read these verses in their context.

Arthur

The May 15, 2007 Question From Readers article presents some very big problems for the established doctrine of the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class. The Society has always taught that the Slave Class has comprised the entire annointed remnant of 144,000 spirit-annointed Christians.

The May 15 QFR was a bombshell in that it stated that annointed ones within the congregation do not necessarily have any more insight or holy spirit than do non-annointed ones. This statement alone is a blatant contradiction of many NT Scriptures. Remember that the Society teaches that the NT was written primarily to the 144,000. Also, remember that the Society teaches that annointed ones make up the prophetic "John Class" which is delivering the message of judgement to the nations. Ask these elders how a bunch of people who don't have any more holy spirit than non-annointed ones could make up a prophetic "John Class". I have provided a list of Scriptures which would contradict this QFR article. A few of the Scritptures plainly state that Christians would have an outpouring of holy spirit and would not need to be taught by anyone except Jesus Christ. There are Scriptures which state that there is a variety of services rendered by Christians, but all under the one and only Head; Christ Jesus.

One Scripture is directed to elders not to lord it over the flock. Yet, the QFR explicitly states that all annointed ones dutifully work under the direction (and teaching); giving their unwavering compliance to the GB. It is very subtly telling the rest of the "Slave Class" that they aren't jack. Here is the list of Scriptures for you to consider. You may or may not want to use all of them. Some verses are better than others for this particular discussion.

Just read each of these Scriptures carefully, ever mindful that the Society teaches that these verses were written to the 144,000 annointed ones. Then, go back and compare the QFR article, and see how it blatantly contradicts many such verses. Here they are:

Matt 23:8-10; 1Cor 1:24; 1 Cor 12:4-11; 2 Cor 1:21,22; Galat 6:4-8; Eph 4:11-16; Col 2:16-22;
James 4:11,12; 1 Pet 4:10,11; 1 Pet 5:1-3; 1 John 2:27; 1 John 2:20; 1 Pet 1:1,2

drew sagan

Well.....

In my experience I found out that by talking to an Elder one on one I accomplished much more. When there are two present they are very demanding and the conversation will go nowhere.

When I mentioned the problems I had with the WTS in a general way one Elder opened his mouth and said "i'd like to see what you have found". I called him a few days later inviting only him to talk about it. After going through some material about 1914 and a number of other issues he was firmly shaken. He wasn't ready to leave the org, but I know it was not easy for him. He expressed many doubts to me and had a very difficult time with the JC that me and my wife where at. I could tell he was really afraid of the other Elders.

Need LOGICAL PRESENTATION that FDS is BS- talk w/2 elders wanting to help

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