Budddha Bless Afghanistan

by unclebruce 57 Replies latest jw friends

Yerusalyim

Wooohoooo,
Petty is my friend!
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
GWEEDO

Yeru,
I have no qualms with you personally, I just feel your politics are mistaken and dangerous to the security of the US.
Same with you GWEEDO.
Thats what I think of the US bombing of Afghanistan, Yeru. Yeah, GB is with you...so is Australia. But you aint winning points in the mid-east. Thats dangerous. The US and it's allies may be satisfied that there was no attempt at negotiations, or evidence put up publically, or that many will starve during the harsh Afgan winter. But the Muslims arn't. What are the implications of that? 3 & 1/2 weeks isn't time enough for consideration of all the angles etc. I mean, if the US comes out of Afganistan leaving it in a worse state than when it went in; if it comes out looking bad in the muslim world, looking like it could have done more. I think you'll only have more terrorism on your hands in the future. Sure, you might kill bin-Laden and his hench men. But terrorism evolves. You've had Qadaffi, then Abu Nidal, now your've got bin-Laden. So who's next?
There is one sure way to end the terrorism cycle, and thats to stop engaging in it.
As to Hussein and Iraq...he is a sicko, no doubt. But I dont think it's a black and white issue like your trying to make out. I dont think anything over in the Mid-East is that simple. But anyway, in short, there were many diplomatic avenues the US could have pursued in relation to Iraq, yet they refused to compromise and insisted on an unconditional withdrawal from Kuwait by Saddam. Iraq put up numerous offers, each was refused and the result was a bloody war...on Iraqs part anyway.
Originally, there were 2 reasons for me bringing up Iraq. One was in relation to non-negotiable ultimatum the US dished out to the Taliban. Which is essentially what they gave out to Iraq.
The second, i believe, was in relation to civilian casualties in Afghanistan. The US at the time of the Gulf war made it out to be a nice and neat little war where no-one was dying down there. They were throwing around the idea of 'surgical strikes' like it meant something. This was later proved to be a myth. So, when Rumsfeld gets on TV and trys to tell me that everything is nice and neat again and accuses the Taliban of being liars and that civilian deaths are 'minimal'...I start to wonder.
unclebruce

TR, you're OK man! ROTFL
I love a lot of your stuff but friends oughta kick each other now and then .. yes?
warm rear-guards, unc (who thought you were getting aloof or something ;)
Yerusalyim

GWEEDO,
You said there were many diplomatic avenues we could have approached with Iraq and didn't(presumably for Afghanistan too) OK< what are those avenues? What Diplomatic efforts could we have made with Iraq and didn't? Same with Afghanistan. For Diplomacy to work the country you are negotiating with has to follow the rules that come with diplomacy. The Taliban for sure has NOT.
Where do you get the idea that all these Afghanis aren't getting food? The UN is getting PLENTY of food and blankets in through Iran and Pakistan, the only stuff not moving is what normally comes in from up north, at least that's what the UN spokeswoman said. Oh, well the Taliban is stealing a lot of the food and office equipment, but that's not our fault.
This isn't the Gulf War, if you've noticed the US ain't claiming it's all nice and surgical, we are admiting that Civilians have been and will be killed, unfortunate, but what could the Taliban have done to prevent this?
You said,
There is one sure way to end the terrorism cycle, and thats to stop engaging in it.

Are you gonna go over and explain that to Bin Ladin?
they refused to compromise and insisted on an unconditional withdrawal from Kuwait by Saddam
There was another option other than for Iraq to leave Kuwait, PERIOD? What was that, especially with Iraq's unprovoked attack on Kuwait, and given the raping, baby killing, murder, and out right theivery that was going on. Sorry, if you negotiate with guys like that you lose. PERIOD. Appeasement in the fashion you are talking is what allowed Hitler to rampage through Europe and gave him the courage to attack Poland with impunity, launching us into WWII.
3 & 1/2 weeks isn't time enough for consideration of all the angles etc.
It isn't, sometimes life and death decisions have to be made in a split second. The president has surrounded himself with the most experienced team available, Every viable option has been considered. I suppose we could have played Bill Clinton and launched a cruise missle at an abandoned camp and call it victory, would that make you happy?
But you aint winning points in the mid-east.
Yep, and they ain't winning any points here either.
when Rumsfeld gets on TV and trys to tell me that everything is nice and neat again and accuses the Taliban of being liars and that civilian deaths are 'minimal'...I start to wonder.
So the Taliban aren't liars? News to me. "We don't know where Bin Ladin is" the taliban, "Bin Ladin is under house arrest", the taliban. "We will send him out of our country" "He will stay here as our guest" "We will try him" "We'll surrender him to a muslim country when the US presents evidence" "We'll never surrender him to anyone"
The reason we don't give info on our evidence against Bin Ladin to the Taliban (other than it wouldn't make a difference to them) is that to do so would reveal methods of survelliance and sources vital to our cause. This would prevent us from utilizing these sources in the future, and might get people killed.
SOLID VIABLE ALTERNATIVES, so far I've heard none, from Anyone, just mambi pambi touchy feely B.S. Show me a viable alternative and I'll listen.
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
GWEEDO

Yeru
Where do you get the idea that all these Afghanis aren't getting food?
What I'm trying to say is the aid required before the onset of winter is just not getting in. This has been the case since s11.
check it out:
"Because of these threats, aid organisations have been forced to pull out their foreign workers - fearing both that they may be caught in the expected raids, or that they would be attacked as westerners after the NATO bombers have flown away. The effects of this withdrawal could be infinitely more tragic and devastating than the worst that a wounded America may now throw at this long, long-suffering country.
For, although it has gone largely unreported, Afghanistan is in the grip of a three-year drought and on the verge of mass starvation. According to the UN-run World Food Programme, by the end of the year 5.5 million people [the UN estimate is now 7 million] will be entirely dependent on food aid to survive the winter - that's a quarter of the Afghan population.
As Christian Aid's programme officer responsible for Afghanistan, I have been helping supply food and seeds to communities in desperate need. In a few weeks the winter snows will come, cutting off the hundreds of isolated villages whose only links to the outside world are rutted dirt tracks. Without seeds they will be unable to replant for next year. Without food aid now, thousands could be dead before the spring."
Chris Buckley, Christian Aid Programme Officer for Afghanistan
14/9
Afghanistan is the poorest country in Asia. Even before the terrorist attacks on the USA on 11 September, it faced a winter of severe food shortages, leaving five million people at risk. This was caused by a combination of three years of successively worsening drought, and the continuing war between the Taliban and opposition United Front, based in the north.
Food distribution vital before the winter sets in
The situation has already been compounded since 11 September by the flight of unknown numbers of Afghans towards the closed Pakistani border and elsewhere, and by the suspension of UN World Food Program (WFP) food entering the country. This threatens a collapse in the local distribution of food before winter closes in, and consequently the likelihood of widespread starvation. The vital need to reach people by November cannot be overstated.
OXFAM (credible ngo)
"What is needed is large scale convoys of basic foodstuffs, rather than single meals designed for soldiers. Until yesterday the UN and aid agencies such as ourselves were still able to get some food convoys into Afghanistan. Due to the airstrikes the UN have stopped all convoys, and we will find delivering aid also much more difficult."
The international medical aid agency Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF)oct8
"It's very hard to get convoys of food in when there's a military offensive going on"
"I do not want to see a civilian population in Afghanistan as innocent victims of what happened on s11"
Also called for the cessation of bombing
Mary Robinson, UN Human Rights commissioner 14/10
"The only way of getting the food aid a month through is by truck. Yet most drivers will simply not venture on to the roads under threat of violence from the Taliban, the opposition or US strike aircraft.
Quite simply, the bombing must stop as soon as possible, and the international community, under the auspices of the UN, must launch a huge and credible aid effort within days, not weeks guaranteeing the safe passage of convoys.
If this is not done before the winter snows come, thousands even hundreds of thousands will certainly die. If this happens, then the "civilised" Western powers who have put so much store by humanitarian values will be culpable. A curious way, indeed, of winning Afghan hearts and minds."
Dominic Nutt, emergencies officer for Christian Aid
"Christian Aid continues to call for a pause in the bombing to allow essential humanitarian supplies to be delivered to Afghans in need."
Christian aid 23/10
"Only a quarter of the food needed is reaching Afghanistan: and less than one fifth can be distributed "
Christian aid 24/10
Englishman

I for one am getting thoroughly Pee'd off with the news reporting at present. All the focus is now just on stray bombs and some injured civilians, is everyone forgetting how many thousands died at the WTC?
Sure, Afghanistan is poor, but, IMHO, a country gets the government that it deserves, and it is that very government that shielded - and probably encouraged - Bin Ladens murderous hit squads to kill all those people.
Englishman.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be....
GWEEDO

Sure, Afghanistan is poor, but, IMHO, a country gets the government that it deserves

...Nah, I'll just let that go through to the keeper!
Yerusalyim

Gweedo,
Now that's what I like, quotes to back up what you're saying. But hey, the truck drivers were having a problem witht the Taliban before all this started. Aid workers were being harassed by the Taliban before all this started too. I suppose it would help if the Americans hadn't bombed the same Red Cross warehouse TWICE. Still, if we let up now, the Taliban has a chance to regroup. They will then be that much harder to remove, and pose that much more of a threat to the World. Gweedo, I'm looking for solutions that will prevent further acts of terror by Al Qaiada and their Taliban supporters. Remember the line of distinction between the Taliban, Bin Ladin, and Al Qaiada are VERY blurred.
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

Budddha Bless Afghanistan

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