Budddha Bless Afghanistan

by unclebruce 57 Replies latest jw friends

  • unclebruce
    unclebruce

    Tina and Wassa together?? Geez that'd be one scary energy vortex .. pity any male egos entering that sacred aura LOL. Tina you sound perminantly sloshed nowerdays .. wassa told me about that Norwegian breakfast .. geez i hope the vodka marinated herrings haven't smoked yer brain or someth'n ;)

    ***

    SaintSatIn

    ***I haven't gotten any lightening from catholics, but a few sparks from the thomass poo!ists. If you didn't see that thread, i can show the url.Saint Satan of the Crusaders Christian Cluster Bomb***

    Sure, but alas I'm time short .. cheers, unc who had a lot of fun with fun-damed-mentalests dressed as a Rev Fredrick Hollingworth and a Father O'Toole.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    GWEEDO,

    You seem to be another one full of criticism and short on alternative ideas. There is no negotiating with terrorists. PERIOD! Never can be, to do so lends them a legitimacy they don't own or deserve. As I recall (and I was there in the thick of it) the US did negotiate in both Iraq and Kosovo, all to no avail.

    True, in the Gulf war only some 7 to 10 percent of the munitions expended were "Smart Bombs" However, in this campaign some 80% is. That there are mishaps is a fact of war, I'm sorry, it happens. Blame the ones responsible, the Taliban and Al Qauda, not the US, which is defending itself. NO CIVILIANS HAVE BEEN TARGETED, that some have been hit is a shame, WHERE's THE ALTERNATIVE?

    The UN AId agency has reported that it is INDEED delivering food and blankets, mostly through Iraq, the only real hold up has been in Northern Afghanistan. Yes, the US dropping food is a PR stunt, SO WHAT. I don't hear you criticizing the Taliban for confiscating the UN food supplies, or for that matter for aiding and abetting terrorists.

    The UN was one alternative, WAITING was another, Negotiations were another, and someone i heard was talking about Pakistan instigating a bloodless coup within the Taliban --so theres another one--, and a longer term political solution is another again.

    The UN, get real, where has the UN EVER been effective? Not in Bosnia, Not in Rwanda, not anywhere, they are a joke. Waiting? Waiting for what, for Bin Ladin and company to do it again, or to get a nuke? Negotiation? Negotiation of WHAT? It's simply, Hand over the Terrorists, quit aiding and abetting terrorists, what's to negotiate. A bloodless coup within the Taliban? Right, give me details of how they were going to get around Omar's Arabian Body Guard, Heck half the Taliban fighting force isn't even Afghanis. Longer term political solution? What political solution, The US was attacked, without action we would have been attacked again, and will be if we don't act.

    Gweedo, you're welcome to you opinion, as wrong as it is, but may I suggest coming up with SOLID VIABLE alternatives or staying out of the debate!

    Yeru

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • CPiolo
    CPiolo

    Hello All:

    Unc, it's good to see you posting again! How's life in the bush treating you?

    Yesterday's L.A. Times ran an interesting and balanced article about an Afghani view of the war:

    . http://www.latimes.com/features/lifestyle/la-000083732oct21.story

    October 21, 2001

    A Native View of War-Torn Land
    Couple see hope for Afghanistan if U.S. will work with the Taliban moderates.

    By LYNN SMITH, TIMES STAFF WRITER

    On Oct. 4, Jahan Stanizai stood on her front porch and gazed blankly at the fallen magnolias that littered the street of her Los Angeles neighborhood.

    Her thoughts were focused on two times when she felt sure the world was collapsing. The first was in 1978 when she was giving birth, confined without anesthetic to her Kabul apartment, as Soviet bombs exploded outside. The other was Sept. 11, as she watched the horrific images from New York City.

    Where could she go now to feel safe? she wondered. Where could her children live in peace? No matter that she and her husband, Zaman, were U.S. citizens now, intellectuals and assimilated. Anyone could confuse them with Arabs or hate them for being Afghans and Muslims. Even stepping outside her home seemed like a risk. Jahan apologized for her tears. The old fears and anxieties had persisted since President Bush started talking about punishing Afghanistan's Taliban leaders if they didn't hand over accused terrorist leader Osama bin Laden, hiding in the already devastated and drought-stricken countryside.

    "I hope he gets his man and leaves the rest of them alone," she said flatly.
    On Oct. 7, airstrikes on her homeland began.

    *

    A few days later, Jahan and Zaman fortified themselves with prayer and rest. In the study of their home--bright, spare and modern--they spoke passionately about their heightened concerns: the loss of humanity abroad and freedom at home, the direction of U.S. policy, and public misperceptions fueled by the media.

    Expressing rarely heard voices of native Afghans, the couple have also appeared in public. They spoke Wednesday at a forum on Afghanistan at USC; Zaman has participated in several radio programs.

    Softly outspoken, Jahan, 47, a psychology student, sat barefoot on a leather easy chair. Thin with sharp features and gray eyes, Zaman, 52, sat at the desk they share. His prayer rug hung neatly over a chair.

    The couple, united through a traditionally arranged marriage, consider themselves cosmopolitan, with friends from many cultures and religions. They laughed easily and disagreed openly.

    A former Fulbright scholar, Zaman particularly was eager to educate on a variety of topics, unspooling digressions on Central Asian history, poetry or politics, then reeling them back in to his point of departure.

    Among other things, the couple wanted to explain what many Americans do not realize: that some Afghans are not eager to be rid of the Taliban. Worse, they said, would be the return of the opposition, the Northern Alliance, a mix of warring ethnic militias that overpowered the country when the Soviets left in 1992 and stayed until the Taliban took over in 1996.

    "Most Westerners don't know how bad that period was," Zaman said. "Now we are judging how bad the Taliban are. When people ask me, I say it's bad, but 10 times better than it was."

    Zaman holds two master's degrees and a doctorate in political science. He has taught at USC, UCLA and several local colleges. In the 1980s, he published a Los Angeles-based anti-Soviet newspaper, Freedom.

    Currently, he teaches English as a second language in adult school and at UCLA, where he also teaches about the 13th century poet and mystic Jelaluddin Rumi.

    Jahan, who has a degree in English and a master's in psychology, worked for 10 years in real estate investment and is pursuing a doctorate in psychology. They have three children: Mustafa, 23, Sara, 16, and Nadia, 14.

    They know their views are shared by some, but not all of their compatriots--unofficially estimated at 120,000 across the United States. But they believe it's their duty to publicize a different point of view so the public can make better-informed decisions.

    "We have a saying," Zaman said. "When a blind man is headed toward a well and you say nothing, it's a sin."

    Jahan also wants to heal her own heart. She feels as if she were a child and her mother and father were engaged in an angry and bitter divorce.

    "You just want them to stop fighting," she said.

    *

    Jahan and Zaman remember when Afghanistan was known as the "Switzerland of Asia," before its landscape was pockmarked with bullet holes and stuffed with land mines. Rumi is just one of the country's influential intellectuals, scientists and philosophers, Zaman said proudly.

    In the 1960s, when Afghanistan experimented with democracy, it was the only country with an "all PhD cabinet," he said. There were 17 daily newspapers and numerous weeklies, he remembered.

    Relatively privileged children of prominent intellectuals, Jahan and Zaman were raised to value education and equality as well as cultural tradition. Jahan did not cover her face or head and was free to wear short skirts. "I was a modern woman," she said, "but I was not allowed to go anywhere alone. I never questioned it. It's part of the culture."

    Zaman was introduced to the West in 1966 when he spent a year in Anacordes, Wash., as an American Field Service student with the family of Walter Vonnegut, a second cousin to writer Kurt Vonnegut.

    The couple met at Kabul University when Jahan was a freshman and Zaman about to become a professor of linguistics and English. The first time he saw her in a class, he said he knew it was love. Traditionally, there is no dating in Afghan culture because while a man can express his interest in a woman, parents arrange the marriages.

    As custom dictated, Zaman approached her on campus one day and asked her to marry him. Jahan said no. A week later, he asked if she had been thinking about what he said. She said maybe. The third time he asked, she said he could talk to her father about it. After six months of interviews with her father and brother, the wedding was arranged in 1973.

    The marriage has been happy, and they have grown together, they said.

    A year after they married, the couple obtained visas to study at the University of Washington. She received a bachelor's, while he earned his doctorate. They returned in 1977 to Kabul, where he taught at the university and worked at the U.S. Information Center and the U.S. Embassy. Jahan worked for the United Nations.

    When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979, the country was plunged into fear and chaos. The Russians closed the airport. Hospitals, bridges and schools were closed or destroyed. Electricity was rationed. The Soviets began to imprison and assassinate university faculty who refused to join the Communist Party.

    "Our relatives were being killed left and right. My students were taken from my classroom and killed," Zaman said. It became common for students to bring AK47s to class, he said. Some of those who converted to communism formed their own ideological offshoot. "One member of the Communist Party killed one of the brightest students in my class who was a member of the other Communist Party," he said.

    Women started covering themselves to underscore their difference from the Soviets. While other women chose traditional covering, Jahan traded her short skirts for pants and tops with longer sleeves.

    The couple were blacklisted, they said, partly because they belonged to the small core of intellectuals and partly because of their ties with the United States. Zaman also was said to be teaching the language of the "imperialists." Jahan was threatened at gunpoint by an Afghan who believed the U.N. was controlled by the United States.

    In the beginning, the thought of fleeing made them feel guilty, as if they would be abandoning their country in its time of need. But when an opportunity arose, they decided it was the only thing they could do. By that time, 26 members of their extended family were dead, and many colleagues had been imprisoned and shot. Nearly all the surviving Afghans of the intellectual, educated class fled to Europe, Canada, Australia, the United States or other countries.

    Their escape began with a doctor's diagnosis, Zaman said. Jahan had a thyroid condition that needed treatment available only in westernized countries. It took her six months to obtain a passport from Soviet officials because she insisted the document include her 16-month-old son. To ensure her return, the officials ordered Zaman to remain.

    Soon after she flew to Pakistan, however, Zaman disguised himself as a fruit merchant, then negotiated his way through a network of spies and border officials. After several tense days, they reunited in Pakistan.

    Before he left Afghanistan, Zaman paused at a rest stop and grabbed a clump of rain-hardened soil from an abandoned hut. The tan lump is now displayed in their study like a museum artifact under a dome of glass. It is labeled in English and Pashtu, "This is Afghanistan."

    The Stanizais settled in Los Angeles in 1980. Zaman sometimes worked three jobs, 14 hours a day, so they could afford to buy their home. Afghan Americans in exile form a loose-knit community, they said. Most have settled down in scattered pockets or by themselves, quietly working to send their children to school.

    *

    The Stanizais keep in touch with other native Afghans at weddings and funerals and by phone in periods of crisis.

    Among Afghan immigrants in California, supporters of the Northern Alliance mingle with their detractors in the East Bay, Sacramento, San Diego and Orange County. Hundreds of royalists, related to the exiled Afghan king, reportedly live in Orange County.

    The Stanizais are Pashtuns, Afghanistan's majority ethnic group, most often identified with the Taliban. Perhaps as much as half the Afghan American community shares the Stanizais' points of view, said Esmael Burhan, retired director of the University of Nebraska's Center for Afghanistan Studies.

    Since the start of recent hostilities, the media have been a continual source of aggravation for Jahan, Zaman and some other Afghan Americans.

    Some stories are factually wrong, they said. Burhan, for instance, saw a CNN report that announced the Taliban was fleeing Afghanistan, but the people they interviewed were speaking Urdu. "They weren't even Taliban," he said.

    The Stanizais said many media portrayals are at odds with what they have heard. Although they fled Afghanistan years before the Taliban took over, they kept current by calling family and friends there, and through listening to firsthand accounts of fellow countrymen who have traveled there and returned. They also questioned Taliban representatives who came to Southern California.

    Jahan called the documentary "Behind the Veil," for instance, "pure Hollywood." She said it didn't make sense that the filmmaker happened on an execution of women at an out-of-the-way stadium. "She wanted to show the Taliban are that kind of people, and they're not. They're not out of the ordinary from any other government we have had in that regard," she said.

    In fact, when the Taliban came to power in 1996, it provided security for women who had been mass raped by soldiers in the warring ethnic militias that now comprise the Northern Alliance, and others, the Stanizais said.

    "What [Afghans] needed was security, so the women would not be raped, their property not taken, their noses not cut because they were too long, or because they belonged to a particular ethnic group, so that people would not drive nails into other people's heads," Zaman said.

    "The people were not coming to the Taliban because they have these great democratic rules and regulations," Zaman said. "They come because they have to survive. Civil liberty is the price people pay, and they have willingly paid that price. Not that they are happy with it."

    As the Stanizais see it, Osama bin Laden must have been "dumped" on the Taliban because no other country would take him. Rather than "harboring" the Saudi Arabian billionaire, they believe, the Taliban was forced to take him because it was economically vulnerable to his money, Zaman said.

    Why else would Bin Laden need his own bodyguards from the Arab world? he asked. "Why would they want their country destroyed at the expense of one individual?"

    Afghans are fiercely independent, Jahan said, and would never want Arabs fighting their battles for them. The Stanizais hope the U.S. will work with moderate elements within the Taliban, as Secretary of State Colin Powell has suggested he would be willing to do, to eliminate the extremists or reduce their role. Ultimately, they would like to see a broad-based government that includes some of the Taliban with economic support from the West.

    In 1999 and 2000, the Stanizais participated in several meetings of the so-called Cypress Process, a convention of Afghan exiles who want to form a peace plan and a loya jirga , or "grand assembly," the traditional method accepted by all ethnic and religious groups to solve their political crises.

    But while the meetings were fruitful, Jahan said their votes counted for little. She said she suspected they had been used as "pawns," just to say that Pashtuns had participated. The meetings for this year were canceled, they said.

    The Stanizais disagree with President Bush's assertion that terrorists hate Americans for their freedom. "Nobody hates us," Jahan said. "Most people in the world love Americans. Not for our blue jeans and Coca-Cola. It's for our democracy," she said. "They want a piece of the pie."

    If they hate anything, it's the U.S. foreign policies that support despotic or dictatorial regimes, Zaman said. "We take their freedom. Directly, or indirectly, we take their resources or we take their hopes and their dreams and their future away from them. We go and build these huge McDonald's arches in front of a beautiful 9th century mosque in Cairo, for example. We just drag it right in front of their faces," he said.

    *

    The Stanizais worry about relatives and other Afghans who are enduring the U.S. attacks. Communication has been suspended. When they talked before the airstrikes began, they said their relatives were worried about them.

    Zaman said he had only one negative experience and also felt much support from colleagues. A ninth-grade classmate told the couple's daughter she was going to hell.

    The hardest part for Jahan is the thought that their hard work, their education, their love of the United States and their standing as good people and good citizens can't protect them from discrimination. On the contrary, as quiet, longtime residents, she knows some may suspect they are "sleepers"--terrorists who are said to infiltrate countries by settling in and waiting for years for their instructions.

    When she hears Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft talk about detaining people based on their ethnic or racial profiles, she feels suffocated. When he appears on TV, she sends her children to their room.

    Jahan said she feels as much fear now as she did when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. The only protection she feels now, she says, is the U.S. Constitution.

    Cheers,

    CPiolo

  • unclebruce
    unclebruce

    Thanks CPiolo,

    The whole Sept11 thing and it's aftermath saddens me deeply .. but i'm buggered if i'm going to excite myself over things i have no power to change. We rollercoast through life at it's top for a while then plunge into it's deepest gullies .. if we're lucky we grow stronger as we learn, fight, find true love, get high now and then with the ecstacy of just being human, breathing reality deeply, sighing away negativity ... life we're here then we're not .. LOL i'm just rambling .. i feel like there's a poem in me somewhere trying to escape ..lol..

    Thanks for inquiring .. I'm well and happy, living in a terror free zone .. biggest terrorist around here is a brushtail possum who drops a crap bomb in my coffee now and then when i'm not looking .. he'll get his .. karma 'll have him fall out of a tree or something.

    best wishes unc.

  • pettygrudger
    pettygrudger

    Yerusalyim - I respect the fact that you serve your company and feel so devote in your opinions. I do not think that puts you "in the know" more than any other individual here. You aren't the expert on this situation, any more than any other individual here. You kinda talk about the U.S. the way the WTBTS talks about all their issues - don't want to take responsibility for ANYTHING that they have done to help make this situation what it is. Everyone KNOWS the U.S. has their own dirty little secrets too. They aren't blameless here. In fact, without knowing too much, I admit, so not being heavily "armed" for this debate, I think its America's own arrogance, haughtiness, heavy handedness that makes it possible for people to develop the hatred that they do (much like the Borg). We roughshod over many countries, and play them like they were our personal pawns (using the North Alliance is a classic example).

    Don't get me wrong - there are many things for which I am proud to be an American. But to say we didn't contribute to this fiasco is also ignorant. I am not a world leader - neither are you. So, please don't be offended if I don't happen to agree that perhaps more "diplomatic strategy" could've have been used. We could have taken a little more time to make sure our "coalition" was strong - and that everyone in all middle east countries were certain what our true goals were here. We could have done more to develop a "coalition" where more middle eastern divisions had say in how, what and where things should take place, and truly enlisted their help, advice, and assistance in dealing with this situation. Bin Ladin survives only because of our attitudes and actions of the past (word from foreign newsletters notes that many are beginning to question America's true motive here).

    You say if we didn't act RIGHT NOW - our own country was in further jeopardy - to that I say "BULL" as well. We could've used the very military forces we're using right now to shore up home defense, while working to find an effective way to eliminate this threat once & for all. How do you think Isreal survives?

    To say that its because they don't like our stance on Isreal - bull! To say that its because they're jealous - also bull. You are dealing with governments that so control their people in an effort to maintain power that they have literally been taken back to the stone ages. Egypt's unemployment rate is 25% - and their doing far better than most. Most of these countries until 30 years ago were decent, well-functioning countries. America has turned its back on the affairs of the middle east and their plight, and therefore given these dictators the ammo they need to breed the hatred they need to stay in power & control "independent" thought. Now you have groups of starving, dying people who have been told from birth that their plight is the fault of America. You can disagree w/that, but you can see, if the shoe were on the other foot, how this may make some want to see us dead. The only countries we "stretch out our hand" to are the ones that serve our personal interests. Our only way to not have this happen in the future is by taking steps here to help the middle east move back to being the well-functioning communities they once were - even if they argued amongst each other. Blowing the smithereens out of Afghanistan isn't doing that. And, its not "making an example" either - its breeding more hate.

    So whats the answer? Obviously some military options were necessary because of the Taliban response. But this day after day, night after night bombing - bull! These are no longer "strategic" bombings - read any foreign middle-easter newspaper & you'll see Gwedo had a point. But, he didn't agree w/you so that makes him (and I'm sure others wrong).

    Yes Osama & Al-Queda have to be taken down, along w/the Taliban (their "front"). This is obvious. And no, I don't wish to see any Americans killed over this tragedy. But, this military action really isn't working as an option either - is it? Did it take care of Sudam Hussain? No. He's still alive & kicking. And, the tactics we are using will in the end only anger other middle-eastern countries into action and/or hatred against the U.S.

    You wanted an alternative - I'd say ask the middle-eastern countries how to handle these situations instead of acting like the big bully on the block country that we do. Did we have the right to justice? ABSOLUTELY. Is this justice - NO.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Petty,

    Once again you offer criticism with no solutions to improve the situation. TYPICAL of the NO WAR AT ANY PRICE crowd that spouts this nonsense.

    You said

    You wanted an alternative - I'd say ask the middle-eastern countries how to handle these situations instead of acting like the big bully on the block country that we do. Did we have the right to justice? ABSOLUTELY. Is this justice - NO.

    Lets see here, The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA is attacked, and we need to turn to the middle east, many of these countries actually aiding terrorists, and ask THEM how to handle it. BULL!

    Trust me, I well know the U.S. is not a sqeaky clean group. But we did NOTHING deserving of being attacked in this manner.

    I respect the fact that you serve your company and feel so devote in your opinions. I do not think that puts you "in the know" more than any other individual here. You aren't the expert on this situation, any more than any other individual here.

    Well, actually I think I AM in a position to know more than most here. I have and still do have access to information from intelligence that most here do not. I've been on the ground in the middle east a bit more than most here. I've been involved in being an instrument of diplomacy for the National Command Authority. Who here has?

    I think its America's own arrogance, haughtiness, heavy handedness that makes it possible for people to develop the hatred that they do (much like the Borg). We roughshod over many countries, and play them like they were our personal pawns (using the North Alliance is a classic example).

    Care to give examples of this? Exactly how are we using the NA as our own personal "pawn"?

    But to say we didn't contribute to this fiasco is also ignorant. I am not a world leader - neither are you. So, please don't be offended if I don't happen to agree that perhaps more "diplomatic strategy" could've have been used. We could have taken a little more time to make sure our "coalition" was strong - and that everyone in all middle east countries were certain what our true goals were here.
    How would this have been accomplished, especially in the face of the Taliban applying pressure to the very groups we were trying to bring into the coalition? The longer we waited the stronger the Taliban and Al Qaida position became.

    More later on this, gotta get to work.

    Explain to me WHY and HOW this is not Justice. Al Qaida, aided and abetted by the Taliban, attacked the United States. Our proposal, turn over Bin Ladin and his cohorts and stop aiding terrorists. They said NO! They EMPHATICALLY said, NO. We are bombing military and terrorist targets with the goal of distabalizing and removing the Taliban and capturing or killing Bin Ladin and company. How is this NOT JUSTICE.

    Once again

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Petty

    Further, you said,

    You say if we didn't act RIGHT NOW - our own country was in further jeopardy - to that I say "BULL" as well. We could've used the very military forces we're using right now to shore up home defense, while working to find an effective way to eliminate this threat once & for all.
    First, HOW is that BULL, second, we have found an effective way to eliminate the threat, what is YOUR solution, we don't have time to go fishing for an answer.
    How do you think Isreal survives?
    Israel survives by combating terrorism, usually on it's own territory, occasionally crossing over to PA territory to stop the Terrorists. The Israelis, bless their hearts, have acts of Terror occur on their soul almost every week, sometimes even daily. The point is to NOT be like Israel by NOT HAVING any more terrorist attacks attempted in the US. Following the Israeli lead, we've taken the battle to them.
    Now you have groups of starving, dying people who have been told from birth that their plight is the fault of America. You can disagree w/that, but you can see, if the shoe were on the other foot, how this may make some want to see us dead. The only countries we "stretch out our hand" to are the ones that serve our personal interests. Our only way to not have this happen in the future is by taking steps here to help the middle east move back to being the well-functioning communities they once were - even if they argued amongst each other.
    I agree they have been told this, that doesn't make it true. The untold fact is that the US alone contributes more to the economies of these countries than any others, in fact more than most other combined. The same is true for the Aid the US sends. We buy their oil, we buy their rugs, we buy their fruit, we give them loans and then forgive the debt. What are we to do, and why not put the onus on the richer muslim countries to do more rather than blame it on the US. Egypt fell because rebels wanted a militant Islamic Repbulic. Many of these countries blew their wad fighting Israel. How are we to blame?

    But this day after day, night after night bombing - bull! These are no longer "strategic" bombings - read any foreign middle-easter newspaper & you'll see Gwedo had a point. But, he didn't agree w/you so that makes him (and I'm sure others wrong).
    These are the same people that call Arafat a hero and Bin Ladin the soul of Islam. True there are few STRATEGIC targets left, now we're going after Tactical targets, do you even know the difference. We have not targeted civilians, PERIOD. Accidents have happened, but that is a fact of war. The Taliban, rather than the US receives the blame.

    One shouldn't offer criticism without offering viable solutions, so far I've seen none in this thread, or any other.

    GWEEDO,

    One last thing, you said our bombing in Iraq killed 200,000. I won't argue the figure. MOST were soldiers, civilian casualties are unfortunate, but to avoid it all Hussein had to do was leave Kuwait.

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • GWEEDO
    GWEEDO

    Yeru

    Once again you offer criticism with no solutions to improve the situation. TYPICAL of the NO WAR AT ANY PRICE crowd that spouts this nonsense.

    Just to make it clear. I am not of the 'NO WAR AT ANY PRICE' mob. I am not a pacifist. If you read my post you might notice that I allow for military intervention. But not within 3 1/2 weeks of s11; not with Winter coming and no REAL aid getting in to Afghanistan; not when the US demands the closure of borders of neigboring countries thereby denying those lucky enough to make it to the border access to refugee camps and aid. I dont buy the idea that the US had to go in right now...dont buy it for one second. It wont prevent future attack in the short term, and hasn't, as can be seen by this Anthrax thing. Al-qaida is dispersed across the globe, not just in Afghanistan so the idea that bombing right now will stop anything seems to me to be rather naive. The measures that are going to prevent imminent attack in the short term are going to increased security and intelligence measures taken at home and in co-operation with other countries, and not this current bombing. Just to restate, I am not of the 'NO WAR AT ANY PRICE' mob, neither am I of the 'WAR AT ANY PRICE' mob, which is why I believe the US should atleast have held off. Back later if I can manage it...cheers!

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    I would like to float a generalised proposition, open to comments by those who feel inclined. Christians are more pro afghan war than atheists/agnostics/pagans. Comments?

  • pettygrudger
    pettygrudger

    I would have to agree w/you SaintSatan. But I also feel that there is quite a bit of prejudism involved as well that has nothing to do w/religion. All Western movies, cartoons, etc. etc. have always depicted Arabs in stupid ways. In fact, my hubby & I last night were trying to come up w/one postive role model for American children regarding Arab-Americans. Couldn't think of one.

    Yeru - I don't really feeling like tit-for-tat this evening. Its not that I dont have good arguments (i.e. - If Isreal is soooo innocent, why is the U.S. "denouncing" their further attacks upon the West Bank - & Isreal "rejecting" what the U.S. has to say?). You are a very close minded person. I have actually respected and appreciated your responses. I have not called you "ignorant", nor told you to "arm yourself". I don't see the point in arguing w/you about it (plus there's others on a new thread where I'm sure you'll have much better fun taking pokes at than lil ole me). But, you won't even give a scrap to others that don't share your viewpoints.

    I said some military response was needed, and that the Taliban has to go. The Northern Alliance is not any better, in fact many feel that they will make it worse. We're jumping into bed w/them, and this too will only fuel more hatred by Arab countries. The U.N. is demanding that the U.S. STOP the military actions as they are severely "impeding" the relief efforts for the Afghani people. But this doesn't seem to matter to you either. Win at all costs - but win what? The Taliban will be taken down. Osama will hopefully be sex-changed into a women and made to live under a fundamentalist state as such.

    What we are doing in the eyes of the world should matter. And, I personnaly hope that our politicians will begin to pay attention to that.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit