How many times have we heard this?
I would like to know if any of you have any good arguements refuting this. My brain is fried from two weeks of "fencing" with JW's. I feel this will be brought up next. I need some ideas, unfortunately.
TIA
D
"Jehovah ALWAYS has worked through ONE organization!"
by Dagney 26 Replies latest jw friends
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blondie
You might enjoy this article by Tom Cabeen, compatriot of Randy Watters at Bethel, and ex-jw.
http://www.brci.org/Attachments/Org.pdf
Does God Work Through An Organization?
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Shawn10538
Jehovah has actually worked through individuals mostly has he not? Moses, Adam, the Prophets, Jesus, Paul... the list goes on. He has also worked through "worldly rulers" , worldly people in general, women, children, animals, books, visions, dreams, spoken from the clouds, from a bush. At no time did any of his recipients ever register as a .org, or have any named organization, membership dues, doing business as and the like. The argument gets even stupider when they say, "If God is organized then he has an organization." Do I really need to respond to that? Someone else get that one. I haven't the stomach for it.
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smellsgood
If they are referring to the Jews, I would hardly call a RACE of people an Organization. If they take the Bible literally than Jehovah worked in many different ways, um, one big difference is that it is recorded that Jehovah actually had direct contact with a person or persons. Meaning he was in the physical realm, interacting almost, or sent a messenger physically to instruct/meet with someone.
I really don't get where that comes from, except maybe they think because they said it it was true. Kind of like when I say say something, it's true. And did I tell you that I was a Neuroscientist working part-time as a Valentino model? It'd probably be more accurate to say that in the Bible, Jehovah worked through a variety of people, but most of them probably had beards.
Besides, Why would he have Jesus come and then have no such organization for 19 centuries after the fact? How was he working at that time? They said that there was always "JW's" through the century, but how would God be working through them if they didn't have an "organization?"
I'll think of more later.
Do they accompany that statement with any Scriptures to serve their own ends? I mean "prove it's true." -
Arthur
Bull !
The OT Biblical record shows that Jehovah always worked through individuals. (i.e. Abraham, Joseph, Jonah, Job, Enoch, Jeremiah, etc.) The record shows that the "organized" worship in Israel was most often corrupt and wayward. It was very often the individuals in the Biblical record who were faithful inspite of the organized arrangement. These faithful ones (such as Jeremiah) were often at odds with the organized priesthood and were considered renegades and outcasts.
The WTS will continuously point to the fact that Jehovah used Moses to lead his people, and then had his instituted priesthood and organized worship. However, their use of this Old Covenant analogy of Moses leading his people - thereby applying that to the modern Brooklyn-based organization simply doesn't fly.
The New Covenant was a break from the old arrangement, and brought about sweeping changes. Jesus Christ is described as the Greater Moses (or mediator to mankind), with no one else serving in that capacity. There is no basis in Scripture for any earthly arrangement or group of people (i.e. "slave" class) serving in a mediatorship along with Christ Jesus.
Scripture is very clear and unambiguous in stating that Jesus is the one and only mediator; no one else. If Jesus is mediator to only 144,000, who is mediator to the "other sheep"? If the WTS claims that no person can attain salvation independent of the "Slave Class", or the "Organization", this means that the Slave Class and the Organization are attempting to place themselves in a co-mediatorship with Jesus. As Jesus said that no one can come to the Father except through me; the WTS basically states that no one can come to Christ except through them.
The Scriptures are also very clear that salvation comes through Jesus Christ, and no other. The Christian congregation was instituted to serve the purposes of building up Christians; for mutual upbuilding and serving each other. There was never any suggestion in Scripture that salvation was predicated upon a membership in any one congregation or (ekklesia). Remember, that the JW organization refers to itself as the "Christian Congregation" of Jehovah's Witnesses. For them to claim that salvation is predicated upon membership in the organization is to go beyond Scripture and teach that salvation does come through a congregation - whereby the congregation is serving in a mediator-like role to individual Christians instead of Christ Jesus.
Baptism was into the name of the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit. There was never any suggestion that a Christian had to acknowledge being baptized into a congregation or (ekklesia). The WTS however, in it's revised baptismal questions states that a person must acknowledge being baptized into "Jehovah's spirit-directed organization" for them to have the "right heart condition" for water immersion. Not once do the Scriptures indicate any kind of prerequisite of a person acknowledging being baptized into any earthly arrangement.
The WTS aargues against the trinity by stating that the word is never mentioned in the Bible; while the very concept never appears in Scripture either. Okay, fine. However, the Scriptures also do not contain the word organization, the concept of an organizaiton, or the concept of organizational salvation either.
There are many more points that could tack on, but I'll leave you with those for now.
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B_Deserter
Any witness that says this, I just say one thing: who was God's organization from the years 100-1879? That should shut em up.
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jaguarbass
I think its very bizzare to think there is a god named Jehober who tells a bunch of old lazy men what he wants from everyone else. It sounds like a scam to me.
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Dagney
Thank you all so much for your comments.
Blondie...I love Tom Cabeen...I used to read him on CC and loved his reasoning on things. I am printing it out, taking myself out to dinner and reading it along with the other comments.
You guys just rock! I want to commend everyone on this board for the support you give one another. It's an honor and privilege to be here (sniff). I hope I get to meet some of you some day.
D
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Paksen
I think its very bizzare to think there is a god named Jehober who tells a bunch of old lazy men what he wants from everyone else.
I don't mean to get off topic. But what is Jehober, don't tell me they changed how they pronounced Jehovah. I'll laugh.
Paks
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jwfacts
“To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.” Watchtower 1983 February 15 p.12
The Watchtower Society places great emphasis on the need for an organization; belonging to Jehovah’s organization is a requirement for salvation. It is claimed Jehovah has always operated through an organization and only ever one. (pe p.192) Since Jesus time this organization is said to be represented by the Faithful and Discreet Slave, a line of true worshippers that extends unbroken for 2,000 years and since 1919, the Watchtower Society has represented this Organization.
Watchtower 1950 October 1 p. 348“However, what we see exemplified in God’s woman, his heavenly universal organization, we should look to see in his visible organization. Why? Because his higher, greater universal organization uses it as her earthly instrument. That is why we do see those motherly traits, those traits and acts of a virtuous woman, in the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead and in the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, because these profess to represent and serve God’s woman.”
The word ‘organization’ never appears in the Bible. One would imagine that if belonging to an organization were essential for salvation then the Bible would use that term. Instead, the Bible consistently states that it is faith in Jesus that leads to salvation.
John 3:16, 36 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life …He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life.”
John 5:40 “And yet YOU do not want to come to me that YOU may have life.”
John 10:9 “I am the door; whoever enters through me will be saved, and he will go in and out and find pasturage.”
As the word “organization” never appears in the Bible the Watchtower uses 1 Corinthians 14:33 “God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace” to justify the necessity of an organization. Yet it is not necessary for an organization to exist for there to be order. There are many organizations that are disorderly, and there are many organized groups of people that are not part of an organization.
This does not mean that organization is not necessary. For the successful operation of congregations, people need to be organised. Unquestioning allegiance to AN Organization is scripturally unsupported.
In an attempt to promote the authority of the Watchtower Society articles claim God has always operated though a single organization.
“The Bible shows that Jehovah has always guided his servants in an organized way…The nation of Israel was called “Jehovah’s congregation.” (Numbers 20:4; 1 Chronicles 28:8) If you were a true worshiper of Jehovah back then, you had to be part of that congregation of worshipers, not separate from it. …Did Jehovah ever use more than one organization during any period of time? In Noah’s day only Noah and those with him inside the ark had God’s protection and survived the floodwaters. (1 Peter 3:20) Also, in the first century there were not two or more Christian organizations. God dealt with just the one. There was just the “one Lord, one faith, one baptism.” (Ephesians 4:5) Likewise in our day Jesus Christ foretold that there would be only one source of spiritual instruction for God’s people.” You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth p. 192
A quick scan of Bible history proves this is not the case. For the majority of history God did not use any organization, at other times he dealt with more than one group at a time, and predominantly he operated through individuals.
Originally, God dealt directly with Adam and Eve. He continued to deal directly with Able and with the unrighteous man Cain. (Genesis 4:15) For the next 2,000 years, there is no mention of any organization or intervention by God, except for when God deal with two more individuals, Enoch and Noah. After the flood, Jehovah continued to deal with individuals rather than with an organization. He concurrently dealt separately with individuals such as Lot and Abraham.
The only time an orgaization is identifiable is when God dealt with the Nation of Israel under Moses. Yet Jehovah continued to deal with individuals not associated with the Israelites. For example, it was during the time of the Israelites that Jehovah dealt directly with Job, a man “blameless and upright, and fearing God and turning aside from bad… the greatest of all the Orientals. (Job 1:1-3)
Over time and against his will, Jehovah instituted a King in Israel. At 1 Samuel 8:7 Jehovah states “it is I whom they have rejected from being king over them” on their insistence on requiring a visible leader.
During the history of Israel God did not deal solely with the King. When his kingly representative Saul attempted to kill David, David fled to live in the apostate land of Philistia with Achish the king of Gath, all the time protected by Jehovah. Jehovah operated through Levites, the Priests and a variety of Bible writers of diverse stations. He regularly rose up independent prophets to chastise his erring kingly representative. Jehovah regularly sent individual prophets to condemn his Israelite organization.
At the death of only the third king, Jehovah foretold ‘Here I am ripping the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and I shall certainly give you ten tribes. And the one tribe is what will continue his for the sake of my servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city that I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel. (1 Kings 11:31-32) After Solomon’s death, God split his organization into two separate organizations, each with their own priestly class. Until the destruction of Israel, Jehovah dealt with the Northern kingdom separately from the Southern kingdom.
After the fall of Jerusalem in 587 B.C., there is no evidence that God actively dealt through this visible organization. For a short time, he continued to deal directly with individuals such as Daniel. After the release from Babylon, God dealt with Ezra and Nehemiah, who was involved with the rebuilding of the temple. Then a period of 500 years ensued with no record of any intervention from God until the time of Jesus, even though the Jews continued as God’s people under the covenant until 70 A.D.
When Jesus arrived, the temple was still in existence. The priesthood was still God’s representative and the Jews were God’s Nation until 70 A.D. However, Jesus and his disciples publicly condemned the Priests, in effect setting up a second rival organization to the one still representing God. While this second group was following Jesus, the Bible shows that there were individuals unattached to the group Jesus had formed whose worship was acceptable.
Mark 9:38-42 “John said to him: “Teacher, we saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us.” 39 But Jesus said: “Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me; 40 for he that is not against us is for us. 41 For whoever gives YOU a cup of water to drink on the ground that YOU belong to Christ, I truly tell YOU, he will by no means lose his reward. 42 But whoever stumbles one of these little ones that believe, it would be finer for him if a millstone such as is turned by an ass were put around his neck and he were actually pitched into the sea.”
It was not necessary to belong to the group of apostles to belong to Christ.
After Jesus death, his disciples actively went against God’s nation of Israel and the high priest, God’s earthly representative.
Acts 5:27-29 “And the high priest questioned them and said: “We positively ordered YOU not to keep teaching upon the basis of this name, and yet, look! YOU have filled Jerusalem with YOUR teaching, and YOU are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.” In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”
For most of the history of the Bible Jehovah did not have a visible organization. Even during the short period that he did, he continued to deal with individuals in preference to the leaders of that organization.