"Jehovah ALWAYS has worked through ONE organization!"

by Dagney 26 Replies latest jw friends

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  seattleniceguy

  "Jehovah ALWAYS has worked through ONE organization!"

  ...in exactly the same way that Santa Claus has always been the CEO of Claus Enteprises, Ltd.

  SNG
• 

  TheListener

  Auld Soul,

  I won't disagree with your line of reasoning , however, it appears to me from reading Exodus Ch. 18 that Jethro had become a believer in the God of Moses prior to making his organizational recommendation.

  Exodus 18:9 Jethro was delighted to hear about all the good things the LORD had done for Israel in rescuing them from the hand of the Egyptians. 10 He said, "Praise be to the LORD, who rescued you from the hand of the Egyptians and of Pharaoh, and who rescued the people from the hand of the Egyptians. 11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for he did this to those who had treated Israel arrogantly." 12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, brought a burnt offering and other sacrifices to God, and Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law in the presence of God.

  It was after these events that Jethro watch Moses and provided his suggestion.

  Exodus 18: 13 The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. 14 When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, "What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?"

  15 Moses answered him, "Because the people come to me to seek God's will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God's decrees and laws."

  17 Moses' father-in-law replied, "What you are doing is not good. 18 You and these people who come to you will only wear yourselves out. The work is too heavy for you; you cannot handle it alone. 19 Listen now to me and I will give you some advice, and may God be with you.

  I don't see where Jethro was saying that God wasn't able to accomplish his purposes but rather it sounds as if Jethro is saying that Moses wasn't handling his responsibilities correctly or judiciously. Perhaps Jethro already knew of Moses penchant for pride?
• 

  atypical

  These memorized statements are so frustrating because they presuppose everything - and offer no substance. It's hard to even know where to begin - do you start by explaining the history of the name Jehovah and where it came from? Do you go all the way back and talk about where the jews got their idea of god from? Or for the sake of argument do you just use the jw's platform and argue whether or not their statement is true according to their own bible? I usually take the last approach, and ask them who the organization was when Jesus appeared on the scene. Then I ask who "Jehovah" was working through, and who Jesus was deliberately opposing. Jeremiah works good for the same argument.
• 

  Kenneson

  They will probably tell you how Jesus didn't act alone. He first chose 12 Apostles and then he sent 70 others to do his bidding. By the time of Paul and the early Christians, Acts 15 speaks of a council of apostles and elders.
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  AuldSoul

  Listener,

  I won't disagree with your line of reasoning either, but I think it may be missing a few facts. In many (probably most) pagan religions exclusive worship of one God was not a requirement. Jethro was just as free to believe in and worship a pantheon of true Gods as any Greek. (Consider Rachel's belief in elohiym) Believing in the God of the Jews didn't make him a proselyte. Jethro was a Kenite priest of Midian (a descendant of Cain) when he met up with the wandering Israelites and he was a priest of Midian when he left them.

  The other thing that is oddly absent from the account is any indication that Jethro's advice had God's support. Jethro even humbly added that Moses should only do it if "God has commanded" him, but the account says Moses listened to the voice of his father-in-law in this matter and gives no indication that God weighed in on the decision in any way.

  Therefore, regardless of whether Jethro became exclusively a worshipper of Jehovah, the idea to organize came from a human. Even after this system was established we find that God raised up Joshua as an individual through whom he worked. Then various individual judges over the course of the next 300 or so years. Then the people insisted on another arrangement that God didn't recommend: kingship. During the long period of kings God sent prophets. Many of these were killed "in nasty ways" (Sir Robin's Minstrels, Monty Python).

  Jethro's recommended arrangement led directly to later similar arrangements, including the Sanhedrin. We all know how that turned out <cough!>Talmud<cough!><cough!> and that is exactly the result of the human idea of organization JWs have in place today.

  God has always worked through individuals who were willing to do as asked. God has frequently been without an organization through which he worked, including a priesthood. JWs can't even point to continuous working through an organization during the period of the Jews being His favored people, much less to continuity throughout the centuries between Jesus' death and today.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  AuldSoul

  Great points, atypical! Whether or not Jesus acted alone, he was in direct opposition to the organization Jehovah was working with at that time. At least, from the JW perspective. He encouraged apostasy from that organization. (John 9) The organization JWs say Jehovah was using was disfellowshipping (shammatta) anyone who confessed Jesus as Christ. Jesus foretold that his disciples would be expelled from the synagogues, not that they would choose to leave (a la "get out of her").

  Insight On the Scriptures Volume 1, p. 787, Expelling Finally, there was sham·mat·ta´, an entire cutting off from the congregation. Some believe the last two forms of excommunication were undistinguishable from each other.
  
  One who was cast out as wicked, cut off entirely, would be considered worthy of death, though the Jews might not have the authority to execute such a one. Nevertheless, the form of cutting off they did employ was a very powerful weapon in the Jewish community. Jesus foretold that his followers would be expelled from the synagogues. (Joh 16:2) Fear of being expelled, or “unchurched,” kept some of the Jews, even the rulers, from confessing Jesus. (Joh 9:22, ftn; 12:42) An example of such action by the synagogue was the case of the healed blind man who spoke favorably of Jesus.—Joh 9:34.

  This "powerful weapon" has often been used by "God approved" religious organizations that are afraid of the influence of people who try to follow Jesus' example. Jehovah's Witnesses use this weapon today. In fact, they bludgeoned me with it. Very nearly to the point of death. They have used this weapon effectively to silence MANY still-active Jehovah's Witnesses who live in near constant fear of their real views being exposed, quite similar to the parents of the man born blind.

  Which authority are they most like—Jesus or the Sanhedrin? Really, it is an insult to the Sanhedrin to compare Jehovah's Witnesses' exercise of authority to them. The Sanhedrin was not nearly so private in their trying of the accused which makes Jehovah's Witnesses so much more Draconian. The comparison to Draco is unfair, too, for even he never advocated private tribunals.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  jaguarbass

  I don't mean to get off topic. But what is Jehober, don't tell me they changed how they pronounced Jehovah. I'll laugh.

  Thats how the people from New Jersy say one of the alledgd gods names when they move to Florida.