Sincere?..Bible-Believers-Can Your Beliefs Be Supported Without The Bible?

by nvrgnbk 60 Replies latest jw friends

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  AlphaOmega

  JamesThomas said...

  So I suggest not believing in a god, and instead investigate into what is actual and real here and now. Go deep into the pool of reality, into the most intimate sense of conscious existence and being, and see what can be found here. Perhaps ultimate-significance, is close. Closer than one would believe.

  This fits with the bulk of this thread - the Bible is a way of "translating" the spiritual impossibiblities and unlikeliness into something that our physical "here and now" brains can comprehend.

  To me, it is both TRUE and a METHAPHOR - Almost as if God had the characters in it act-out the stories in order to make them memorable and able to be passed down to the next generation.

  A good example is the Book of Exodus. There is archelogical proof that the AN exodus happened, but there is much spiritual teaching contained within the story. (fallen people, spiritual need, find God, journey, tribulation, led to "promised land" (whether it be real, a state of mind or Nirvana).

  The Gospel of Thomas says this... (backed up by Luke's Gospel - I think)

  The Kingdom of God is within you and all about you, not in buildings of wood and stone.

  When I am gone, split a piece of wood and I am there; lift a stone and you will find me.

  I'm sure that the truth is simpler in essence than we make it
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  Open mind

  James said: "Like I have said before: many atheist are more spiritual (for lack of a better phrase) than religious people because an atheist clearly sees the ridiculousness of definable gods and deities.
  
  So I suggest not believing in a god, and instead investigate into what is actual and real here and now. "
  
  
  Thank you James.
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  JamesThomas

  AlphaOmega:

  ... the Bible is a way of "translating" the spiritual impossibiblities and unlikeliness into something that our physical "here and now" brains can comprehend.

  To me, it is both TRUE and a METHAPHOR - Almost as if God had the characters in it act-out the stories in order to make them memorable and able to be passed down to the next generation.

  I understand what you are saying here, as I too once felt -- like Joesph Campbell -- that the Bible was mainly helpful metaphor and symbolism. However, most Bible readers don't have a clue and accept the Bible as the "truth". It's not. This is like having a picnic under a sign that reads "Picnic area 5 miles", foolishly thinking you are at your destination. At best, at best, the Bible is a pointer, and not a very good one. Today there are far better pointers. Generally the Bible is trap. It shrinks and places significance 180 degrees outside in some other person, place and time. Not a problem if you are wise enough to know the Bible is really pointing at you in this moment as the Christ; but how many know that?

  The brain can not comprehend our ultimate truth (the Alpha and Omega) which is too infinitely vast, too close, too vibrantly alive and immediate to capture in second-hand mental imagery and commentary. So valid guidance general states right up front that there is no truth in the words of guidance...only you supply that. Ultimate truth is not knowable as things are known. Truth, is lived. It is what we foundationally and authentically are.

  The Kingdom of God is within you and all about you, not in buildings of wood and stone.

  When I am gone, split a piece of wood and I am there; lift a stone and you will find me.

  Yes, here is a rare piece of clear guidance. Did it make it into the pages of Bible?

  Luke 17:21, another rare piece which says "The kingdom of God is within you". However most Bible scholars will probably tell you "within you" is a grammatical error, and should read "among you".

  "Among you" means the truth is outside of you in some other location...which diminishes and limits truth to time and space. "Among you" takes focus away from inner investigation and places it out in some god-knows-where abstract corner of the universe.

  99.9% of the time, the Bible and all the religious interpritation of it, is a divisive bag over our head that blinds us to our genuine identity and that which unites us one and all. Once in a while someone like you, AlphaOmega, sees through the dense fog of words and dogma. But the wisdom to see is found were? Within you, and not in the pages of the Bible. So, I suggest now throwing your Bible away, and be still of all you believe "self" and universe to be, and clearly see what remains.

  j
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  AlphaOmega

  JamesThomas said...

  99.9% of the time, the Bible and all the religious interpritation of it, is a divisive bag over our head that blinds us to our genuine identity and that which unites us one and all. Once in a while someone like you, AlphaOmega, sees through the dense fog of words and dogma. But the wisdom to see is found were? Within you, and not in the pages of the Bible. So, I suggest now throwing your Bible away, and be still of all you believe "self" and universe to be, and clearly see what remains.

  I accept what you say and I like your style.

  For me, I won't discregard the Bible - as I now look at it through "new eyes". I see the symbolism and metaphor on every page. Underneath the human mess and distortion (the fog), I see the glowing essence - the divine spark - the message.

  If I used it as a crutch then maybe I should think about tearing myself away from it, but I do believe it was inspired by God (however you perceive him) for the purpose of freeing mankind. It still works for me, along with many other "scriptures" both modern and old which reveal him and the truth to us.

  I agree, that all the bits about "working out your own salvation" seem to have been left out of the canon of scripture. But then that fits with the age-old concept of Religion being used to control the masses. Come to us - we have all the answers - outside of us there is no salvation.

  Just like the NWT has attempted to remove the deity of Christ from it's pages - leaving only little "clues"; so too have "little clues" been left in the accepted canon. The Gospel of Thomas parallels are there (some of them)...

  There is no use saying, 'Look! Here it is' or 'Look! There it is.' God's kingdom is here with you."

  [Luke 17:21 CEV]

  This God made the world and everything in it. He is Lord of heaven and earth, and he doesn't live in temples built by human hands.

  [Acts 17:24 CEV]

  God also reveals himself and his message through other means, other texts, converations with people we meet, songs we hear and the world around us. As the word "Bible" means "Library" - I add all those other means to its shelves
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  Open mind

  I think much wisdom can be found in the pages of Calvin & Hobbes.
  
  Now you may think I'm just being snarky, (of course I am a little) but there are great tidbits to found everywhere.
  
  The problems start when people assign supernatural significance to any human work.
  
  Open Mind
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  JamesThomas

  Open mind:

  Thank you James.

  You're welcome, and I did not mean to ignore you or anyone else who may direct a little gratitude this way. However, more importantly, what is it within you that senses that there is a deeper authenticity to life and existence that may have been missed. Your own intimate wisdom is the portal to the truth sought. I'm not giving you anything.

  AlphaOmega,

  I can only pass on what I honestly see. In my journey it has been extremely critical to let go of everything: all gods and beliefs (religious or otherwise), all words and thoughts ever heard or memorized. It's like a death where everything believed to be self and universe is surrendered.

  There is that, our foundational Reality which needs to hold on to nothing, and which can be realized when there is an actual and thorough holding on to nothing. As long as there is holding on, there is no freedom which only the fall provides.

  Hold on to your Bible if you want to. I can only suggest throwing it away. Hold on to your Christianity and your beloved Jesus, or whatever, if you so desire. However, know that the genuine and unconditional peace and wholeness you seek will likely not be clearly and thoroughly realized and lived until there is a stepping off the cliff leaving everything behind.

  This is obviously not a physical leap. It's more of a very deep mental and psychological one; which can bring up some very, very intense fear and terror. Be gentle, be kind, take your time. It can take years, but it doesn't have to; because it is simply a quantum leap to where and what you already truly are.

  j
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  Open mind

  "I'm not giving you anything."
  
  I know. But thanks for your always-humble nudges.
  
  Open Mind
  
  p.s. I love the cliff diver. It evokes the same feeling in me as my avatar.
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  AlphaOmega

  Thanks James.

  I appreciate what you are saying and "where you are taking me".

  I just find it "hard" to even want to let go of the Bible, when that is the very thing that has got me to my open mindedness.

  Sounds like a comfort blanket when I put it like that in black and white - but all the same, it runs deeper than that.

  When I open the Bible, I "see" it in 3D with strands liking THROUGH the pages to other pages AND to the physical world (or at least what we call "physical"). I can only liken it to how Neo sees the Matrix. You can look and see (depending on where you are in your journey)

  • An old redundant book - full of fairy tales
  • An important historical document
  • Another of the world's "Holy Books" that people "believe in"
  • A book of fables and parables - each with a message for the reader today
  • A launchpad, a room with an infinite number of doors

  For me it is something very simple object (an old fashioned bound book) that acts as the launchpad to something very indescribable, as I learn about the mysteries and truth inside and how they relate to the world(s) around me, I need it less and less (as I carry the mesage with me).

  Yep, I'm sounding like a nutter now!
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  Sad emo

  Great commentary JT and AO

  No point me putting my twopennorth in as I'd have been more or less saying the same as AO. Perhaps you are right James, maybe the Bible might be something else which clouds the 'whisper', there may come a time on my journey when I can let that go, much as I did with *religion*, but for now, I see there is truth within the pages which help me on this particular stage of my journey.

  I have metaphorically jumped of the cliff - yes, let go of absolutely everything, experienced total, indescribable blackness with my entire being - I cannot explain how or why my fall was broken by a 'branch' (To me, God. To you, whatever) on the way down, but I was left with a completely different perspective on life. I don't believe I'll land at the bottom off the cliff until I leave this plane of existence and when I make that last short jump, I will neither land with a thud or end up in several pieces!

  peace
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  JamesThomas

  AlphaOmega:

  I just find it "hard" to even want to let go of the Bible, when that is the very thing that has got me to my open mindedness.

  There is an wise old Buddhist saying: One uses a boat to get to the other side of the river, then it is abandoned that we may go on our way. (or something like that...and I'm not selling Buddhism here). Who/what is this "me" who has "open mindedness"? What we want to find out is do you exist as is believed? Who/what are you, really? What is real?

  You can look and see (depending on where you are in your journey)

  What is seeing? Turn 180 from the Bible you hold in your hand. What is the authentic and genuine reality that is seeing these words right now? Do you see what I'm getting at? Bibles, words, thoughts, teachings, beliefs and all other objects only distract from a valid inner investigation. But don't believe me, see it clearly first hand.

  You are at a very critical time as you see that there is a propensity to not let go. This is a good sign. See more. See what is not you. See that all the thoughts ever believed about "self" are not that which sees all the thoughts....and gently let go of them. New stuff and older stuff will arise to lay claim on you, gently see it for what it is (not you), and let go of it.

  I have found it is a journey of subtraction. We truly already are the purity and wholeness we seek; it is all the erroneous shit that blinds us. See. Clearly see what is false, and what remains is True. It's You. That's all. It's very simple. Don't need Bibles and books to add to you. Don't need religion or gurus to give you something. Don't need to travel anywhere. Just see. Quietly and gently see. It is your sincerity and earnestness which will fuel this journey to where you already are.

  j