Does God REALLY exist? (An Attempt at an Online Bible Study)

by theMartian 121 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  gumby

  The only reason that a great many religious people believe that ethics cannot exist without Tooth Fairy religion is that their religious teachers tell them so, and they gulliby believe it. It doesn't have to be this way.

  It doesn't have to be that way but it is that way and will be that way, until mankinds old way of thinking is buried by believable science when mankind finally becomes aware of it's findings........which just might take awhile longer than our lives will see.

  The only explainable way humans have had to go on in understanding how life began until modern methods and findings came along as well as those born who were not afraid to speak out against orthodoxy accepted beliefs, was that god(s) did it......rather than the notion that there was no conscience and moral entity behind it all.

  Gumby
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  timetochange

  When Jesus was on earth he fought against the religious hypocrisy so prevalent among those men who claimed to represent God but in reality only represented and protected their religious position and power, in other words their system. Jesus was the not first to stand up against religious hypocrisy nor is he the last many here boldly attempt to do the same. Religious hypocrisy both in Jesus day and our day has served to kill trust in religious men, this is good.

  It is obvious that Jesus and the early Christians did not consider the Hebrew OT a sacred word for word representation of God's word. The very fact that they not only quoted from both the Hebrew text and the Greek Septuagint (which differ in various places) but also paraphased and even quoted from books not included in the Hebrew canon gives evidence that they were not all that concerned with perfect word accuracy, verb tenses etc. as so many Christians are today. The teaching of Biblical inerrancy and literalism are man-made and for many have killed trust in the understanding of the Bible as it has been handed down to us, this too is good. But it is no wonder that the bottom line for many is to leave not only their religion and the Bible but also God. This is the inevitable and natural consequence of the treachery found in religion.

  But, AlanF, not everyone will go down the road of atheism or agnosticism (though I think we're headed in that direction) and it's not because they need to believe in myths or toothfairies or a moral God to keep them in line. Believe it or not some truly love God. Some here on this board love God. You may believe that stems from some fanciful need or from past associations or over emotionalism but that would be your supposition not the reality of what goes on in the hearts of some. They are sure of their relationship with God and you are sure of your agnostic stand, it feels good to be settled and sure in a world where so much is changing so fast. In that regard we are both at peace.

  As for evolution I'm willing to say that physical evidence exists that opens the door to that idea but not to the notion that an either/or exists between evolution and God (which is the topic of this thread, the existence of God). The origin of matter is an enigma for atheists unless of course they conclude that eons ago in empty space something originated from nothing. On the other hand to say that matter has always existed is to make matter God.
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  AlanF

  timetochange wrote:

  : . . . But, AlanF, not everyone will go down the road of atheism or agnosticism (though I think we're headed in that direction) and it's not because they need to believe in myths or toothfairies or a moral God to keep them in line.

  Then why is it? Do they have real evidence that God exists? If so, then what is it?

  : Believe it or not some truly love God.

  Based on what? I can think of several reasons: they were taught to as children; they have a need for moral guidance; they have a need to believe in something bigger than themselves.

  Many Christians claim that mankind has an inherent need to believe in God. The existence of atheists and strong agnostics (like me) belie that claim. How do you explain that?

  : Some here on this board love God. You may believe that stems from some fanciful need or from past associations or over emotionalism but that would be your supposition not the reality of what goes on in the hearts of some.

  Prove it. Or at least, give some credible evidence.

  : They are sure of their relationship with God

  How? Does God talk to them? Or are they just going on what they've always believed from childhood, or on a deep emotional need?

  : and you are sure of your agnostic stand,

  Of course, because of evidence, or more correctly, lack thereof. And you know very well that I can present plenty of information about the evidence and appropriate lacks.

  : it feels good to be settled and sure in a world where so much is changing so fast. In that regard we are both at peace.

  I am, and I'm glad you are. But many are not. And just being at peace doesn't settle the questions we're considering here.

  : As for evolution I'm willing to say that physical evidence exists that opens the door to that idea but not to the notion that an either/or exists between evolution and God (which is the topic of this thread, the existence of God).

  What physical evidence do you think exists that allows God to be part of the equation?

  When I speak of God here, I'm talking about the biblical God, in his various incarnations. If you think you can present evidence, then you must also be prepared to deal with the well known and virtually impossible problem of the existence evil, and some other things. I say this because, like me, a great many agnostics and atheists reject the notion of the Christian God for these very reasons. I can elaborate if necessary. I will point out that dismissing these ideas as just the ravings of an unbeliever doesn't make them go away.

  : The origin of matter is an enigma for atheists unless of course they conclude that eons ago in empty space something originated from nothing.

  Scientists like enigmas; it's what keeps them going. Why something exists rather than nothing is probably the greatest enigma people know of.

  But of course, the origin of the creator of matter, if any, is an enigma for creationists. So as I've said before, on the matter of origins everyone is in the same boat of complete ignorance.

  : On the other hand to say that matter has always existed is to make matter God.

  I disagree. In any case, to say that God has always existed is special pleading and again puts theists and unbelievers in the same boat regarding ultimate origins.

  The difference is that when unbelievers posit that perhaps matter, somewhere and in some "place", has always existed, they know that it's pure speculation, whereas those who claim that God has always existed are virtually always sure of themselves.

  AlanF
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  timetochange

  AlanF,

  My guess would be that you have probably asked these questions scores of times or more to different people and of course have received responses that did not satisfy you or were in your opinion so off the wall that they only served to confirm what you are already fully convinced of.

  May I ask, if for some unimaginable reason the God of the Bible (as you call him) were to in some way cause you to know of his existence would you come here and let us know? Would it be possible for you to do so? Yes, I think you would. I know you would because you are a man of integrity.

  The answers to the questions you asked are there the problem is that fundamentalists and literalists have poisoned the water to such an extent that reason is no longer an option rather confrontation and a desire to scream out foul and injustice are the call of the day. And rightly so!!

  Fire away! If not, peace to you AlanF and your family.
• 

  JamesThomas

  timetochange:

  Believe it or not some truly love God. Some here on this board love God.

  I would agree that they believe they do. However, those who often boldly profess a "love for God", are the very same ones who worship a very diminutive and vindictive god-image. They unquestionably embrace a blood encrusted idol peddled from the dank and dusty pages of an archaic book; an anthropomorphic hand-me-down. Honestly, is it the unimaginable Source of all existence they love, or a simple minded story character created by tribal fears and nightmares? If their "love" is so great, why is it so easily fooled? Why do they bow to something so small as a deity?

  Perhaps those who truly respect the Divine (whatever that word points to), cater to no known god or religion -- for to do so is to bastardize and belittle it. My sense is that many so called "atheists" are noble people who honor truth and life in a way beyond most religious people's grasp.

  j
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  nvrgnbk

  My sense is that many so called "atheists" are noble people who honor truth and life in a way beyond most religious people's grasp

  jt
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  LtCmd.Lore

  My sense is that many so called "atheists" are noble people who honor truth and life in a way beyond most religious people's grasp

  Amen.
• 

  AlanF

  timetochange wrote:

  : My guess would be that you have probably asked these questions scores of times or more to different people and of course have received responses that did not satisfy you or were in your opinion so off the wall that they only served to confirm what you are already fully convinced of.

  Correct.

  : May I ask, if for some unimaginable reason the God of the Bible (as you call him) were to in some way cause you to know of his existence would you come here and let us know? Would it be possible for you to do so? Yes, I think you would. I know you would because you are a man of integrity.

  I certainly would. However, before I did that, I would have a great many questions and issues for him to deal with. I've already mentioned a few in this thread. Another is rather more personal: Why, in past times when I prayed fervently, did I receive no evident answer? As the comedian Don Rickles used to say: What am I? Chopped liver?

  : The answers to the questions you asked are there

  Where?

  : the problem is that fundamentalists and literalists have poisoned the water to such an extent that reason is no longer an option rather confrontation and a desire to scream out foul and injustice are the call of the day. And rightly so!!

  Do you really think that I and others of similar mind are so stupid as not to be able to filter out fundamentalist poison and get to the meat of these issues? These issues go far beyond what your typical narrow minded, ignorant fundamentalist is concerned with. These issues get to the heart of religiosity itself, whether the fundamentalist kind or kinds that are less strident. The point is not the stridency -- it's the fundamental claim: there is a God who exists and is worthy of worship because of blah blah blah. From fundamentalism to the most wishy washy of Christian belief systems, the basic idea is this fundamental claim. And that is what I take issue with, on both a factual evidentiary basis and a philosophical basis.

  Unfortunately, as you've surmised, I've posed questions similar to those in this thread plenty of times, always with the same result: non-answers and excuses. If that's the best that God-apologists can muster, then I must say that I'm glad I'm not God -- I'd be highly embarassed.

  AlanF
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  timetochange

  AlanF,

  I certainly would. However, before I did that, I would have a great many questions and issues for him to deal with. I've already mentioned a few in this thread. Another is rather more personal: Why, in past times when I prayed fervently, did I receive no evident answer? As the comedian Don Rickles used to say: What am I? Chopped liver?

  I doubt you would ask those questions first. You are looking at things from the perspective you have now, if God should get in contact with you your perspective would immediately change and so would your immediate questions. I'm not saying your questions have no merit, they certainly do, but they would not be the first that come to mind if the event we are discussing should occur.

  Do you really think that I and others of similar mind are so stupid as not to be able to filter out fundamentalist poison and get to the meat of these issues?

  No, I don't think you're stupid on the contrary. But I was not referring to mental ability when I wrote: "The answers to the questions you asked are there the problem is that fundamentalists and literalists have poisoned the water to such an extent that reason is no longer an option..." When someone is primed to reject something there is often no way to get over the wall and most attempts at reason are understandably dismissed, this is human. It's like a Trinitarian attempting to convince a diehard anti-Trinitarian - very difficult and most times impossible.

  These issues go far beyond what your typical narrow minded, ignorantfundamentalist is concerned with.

  Absolutely.

  These issues get to the heart of religiosity itself, whether the fundamentalist kind or kinds that are less strident. The point is not the stridency -- it's the fundamental claim: there is a God who exists and is worthy of worship because of blah blah blah. From fundamentalism to the most wishy washy of Christian belief systems, the basic idea is this fundamental claim. And that is what I take issue with, on both a factual evidentiary basis and a philosophical basis.

  Let me use a little license here just for the sake of this discussion. If God exists he is condemned because the stupid people who claim to represent him have lied and on top of that God has remained silent and all of this proves/strongly suggests he does not exist. We are material beings and since no material answer to our questions has been provided this proves/strongly suggests he does not exist. No one today has seen God this is another strong suggestion of his non-existence. Allowing mankind to rule the earth as he pleases even to the point of harming himself is also proof/strong suggestion of non-existence.

  You know what the great irony is in all of this? At one time ancient peoples who believed in God believed in visions, resurrections and virgin births because though they could not understand how such things could really come about they believed God could accomplish it. Today, we in effect can cause visions via the technology available, virtual reality etc, we can have a real time conversation with not only someone on the other side of the earth but also in space, breathing life into a lifeless body and starting up a heart that has stopped beating is a daily occurrence today as well impregnating women without sexual intercourse occurring (parthenogenisis among so called lower life forms is also well documented today). We can boom voices from the heavens and as it were part waters, we heal diseases which were at one time unhealable, we can spread disease at will if we so wish via biological warfare, we can even annihilate a city reducing it to dust along with all life in that city. We can feed every person on earth if all of us really wanted to, a veritable land of milk and honey is possible if people could curtail their greediness and bickering, even raining food from the sky is possible today. We can purify a body of water making it potable or "curse" it and kill every living thing in it. We are even pushing open the door to direct brain to machine communication and experimenting with invisibility.

  So, today we know that physically every so called miracle in the Bible is by no means an impossibility meaning of course that if we can do it so can a higher power. But so what that doesn't prove a thing! True, but it is an interesting turn of events. In God's image?

  We have to look beyond the popular religious views and look at things from a perspective more broad more in line with reason. The Bible was written for the people of its day. People who needed something far different than we, people who lived in times impossible for anyone today to really grasp. We cannot put ourselves in their shoes we cannot judge them by todays standards as if we today are somehow more moral than they were. Also, whatever interaction there was with God and whatever he caused or allowed to be done on what basis do we ourselves judge God? Americans live on lands also taken by force, a land where slavery was also practiced, where indentured servitude also existed, where women were denied many legal and social rights etc., and this thousands of years after the times of ancient Israel and during more a enlightened era.

  But God knew better, he should have had the Jews live a more enlightened life. What difference would it have made? Look around us today, many have a problem following the simplist and most common sense of laws. If God should say I want you all to live as you should live so here's the cure for cancer and all other major diseases, the recipe for a safe cheap renewable fuel, and the secret to living twice as long as you do today, all I ask is to stop the warring among yourselves. Would we? No. And if God should as a result not provide those things many would turn around and say God knew he was asking the impossible, he knew we wouldn't stop killing each other it was all an empty promise.

  God could cause the parting of the Atlantic, the blooming of trees on the moon and mass visions and dreams and there would still be many who would insist all those events have a natural explanation and they would ridicule those who believe God caused them. So, it really doesn't matter...everyone believes as they themselves find.

  It's always been that way. The thing that has real value today is how we treat one another not how we believe. There are saints among atheists and demons among the religious and of course vice versa. What group of people whether secular or religious has the sole claim to the moral highground? None. Religious people in and of themselves have no moral authority or claim to pure truth and neither do atheists. We are all in the same boat. The ancient Greeks might have said, "the gods are laughing at us," maybe so. Maybe their waiting for us to put the godlike powers we have to good use and fix what we can.

  I cannot convince anyone that God exists. The conversations can be interesting and mind sharpening but that's all they are. We are each on the other side of a divide and all we can do is claim our side of the canyon is the prettier one. Maybe God will one day fill the divide with water making a meeting of the minds possible, who knows. As we now know today, all things are possible.
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  5go

  5go, whatever are you going on about? Did you read too fast? I'm a Christian, and logical. I trashed the original premise of this thread, which is fundamentally flawed.

  It's always the faithful's lack of faith or incompetance to blame, not GOD's inaction or lack of existance.

  Hey, I wouldn't mind a decently presented, logical argument. But this thread ain't it. It's not about the supposed header, the existence of God, but rather a defence for Creationism over Evolution, ergo, is the bible inerrant in it's depiction of God and creation?

  Yep, I read it

  I don't see why God would even want to try and rescue you from this bad argument.

  If he did exsist why wouldn't he help his follower in making this unwinable argument.