MEMORIAL Q: How does WT Explain Away 1 Cor. 10:17?

by abbagail 30 Replies latest jw experiences

jwfacts

The Bible was only written for the 144,000.
United in Worship p.111 “Special attention was being given to making up the government that would rule mankind for 1,000 years, and nearly all the inspired letters in the Christian Greek Scriptures are primarily directed to this group of Kingdom heirs—"the holy ones," "partakers of the heavenly calling.”
Watchtower 1974 June 15 p.376 “Also, it is to the spirit-anointed Christians who will rule in that kingdom that most of the Christian Greek Scriptures is directed, including the promises of everlasting life.”
Watchtower 2002 February 1 p. 23 “All of this should impress upon the minds of the other sheep why the Christian Greek Scriptures focus so much attention on Christ and his anointed brothers and their central role in the outworking of Jehovah’s purposes. The other sheep therefore consider it a privilege to support in every way possible the anointed slave class while awaiting “the revealing of the sons of God” at Armageddon and during the Millennium.”
Mad

Hello, Abagail!
I'm called the Mad JW because I'm very unusual for one of us - altho, come to think of it, people of other faiths don't either- I readily admit our faults, mistakes & shortcomings!
First ( this is NOT "Official WT"), you should realise that- just as Christ said- "the Meek Will Inherit the Earth"! ( Matt 5:5)
Second, he didn't invite any of the HUNDREDS ( or THOUSANDS ) of disciples to the 'Last Supper' - JUST his 12 apostles...
Third- regardless of Heaven or Earth, ALL True Christians- those that worship his God & Father- are all in perfect unity of purpose...
Don't you think that Paul's and Jesus' words tie that together?
Agape,
Mad
heathen

They had the "observer" dogma on that but of course no scriptures that say people would just observe the ritual. Jesus did say that people would be judged based on their treatment of his brothers so there is something to the 2 class system but the 2 folds of sheep is being mis interpreted when it is talking about the gentiles allowed in the new covenant and would be equal sharers in the promise . The 144k I believe are martyrs . Mathew 25 . The great crowd will definately be around after the last 144k is resurrected and they will escape the great tribulation. never knowing death .
abbagail

Hey, wow, thanks everyone for all the great input.

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SirNose, lol, crack me up. I always love a good Q & A session. I feel like I just got off the shrink's couch. ;-)

Seriously, sad but true, round and round, pre-packaged answers drilled so deep via 3x week meetings, mags, rags, books, and more. But as you say with the latest QFR (which I did see that thread earlier yesterday/today), I've often wondered how I would have handled all the revisions that came after I left. From the outside looking in, we'd think the "foundation" of the individual JWs would begin to feel VERY UNSTEADY by now with all the changes, but I suppose they are also taught to either "stuff it" (speak not against the anointed), or blow it off as the never-ending "new light."

It was the Rev./Climax book in 1988-1989 that started cracking my foundation. That word, ORGANIZATION, just leaped off the page, every other line. I now think it was the Holy Spirit screaming at me!

Anyhoo, thanks for "the circle will never be broken" warning.

/ag
abbagail

Hi jwfacts, thanks mucho, for the piercing direct quotes from WT-Replaces-Holy-Spirit literature.

For the life of me I can barely remember this business about all of the Greek Scriptures applying ONLY to the "anointed," and yet I thought I had been quite the "studious" little WT-slave. Nothing like hogging up for themselves what Paul calls "THE BLESSED HOPE" (for ALL believers in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ).

What year did that United in Worshp book come out? I left the org in 1990, and I really don't remember it too well, if at all. Now, that 1974 WT quote, I was in from 1979-1990, so I should have heard about that one. Even so, it is a bit more "mild" than the United book AND that 2002 WT quote, which, frankly, infuriates me because they are SO horrendously in error.

As I said further above, the TRUTH lies in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION. All of the earthly Kingdom promises in the OT and through the Gospels applies to LITERAL ISRAEL and they WILL still be fulfilled for the one-third "remnant" of Jews who are (now unbelieving) but who will become believers and be saved during the nightmares of the tribulation. (Jesus AND the 12 apostles were sent SOLELY TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, the Lord gave the command himself.)

But ALL Greek scriptures by Paul are for the GENTILES (Romans through Philemon), all of whom have the HEAVENLY HOPE, including any Jews who become believers durings this 2,000+ year "AGE OF GRACE" since Paul was commissioned by the Lord Jesus Christ himself to "GO TO THE GENTILES." The other 12 were NEVER sent to preach to the Gentiles, nor even the Samaritans (only Peter's ONE-TIME-vist to Cornelius/Gentile, which acted as "confirmation" when Paul met with them 12 years later in Jerusalem and they would not believe that the Gentiles were now allowed "in" and did not have to be "under law," but Peter remembered Cornelius, and backed up Paul on this, as it being a definite God-ordained thing).

ALL GENTILES (and believing Jews) have the hope of the heavenly calling, and ALL are considered the "holy ones," the "body of Christ," etc.

I'm not "preaching at you," jwfacts, I'm just blowing off steam that the WT is teaching it soooo completely backwards.

It's frustrating because the "real truth" makes so much more "simple sense" without all the mind-boggling brain-twisting layers of interpretations of the WT writers/deceivers.

Oh well, thanks for those specific quotes. More "poison food" for the poor JWs to unlearn... (which makes it even harder for any one of us who would hope to get through to them).

/ag
abbagail

Greetings Mad JW! ;-) Are you "mad" as in "insane," or just "mad" about something in particular? ;-)

By your answer it sounds as if you are a "current" JW? (doesn't matter, really).

Thanks for your input. Would you mind if I disagreed? ;-)

1. Yes, the Lord said the "meek shall inherit the earth." But who was He talking to? = JEWS. The beatitudes are a continuation of the Earthly Kingdom promises as found in the OT, which also were written specifically TO the House of Israel, and no one else.

Matthew 15:24: "But He answered and said, "I was NOT sent EXCEPT to the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL."

Matthew 10:5,6: "These twelve Jesus sent out and COMMANDED them, saying: "DO NOT GO INTO THE WAY OF THE GENTILES, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL."

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2. The Lord only invited the 12 apostles to the Last Supper, true. But he didn't invite thousands of "onlookers" either to "sit and watch" and "pass the plate" to the "only two handfuls" who DID partake. The original 12 apostles represent "first pickings" (so to speak) for salvation from the House of Israel. And as you know, the majority of the Jews rejected the Lord. Therefore, the Lord allowed the "veil" to come over the eyes of the House of Israel FOR A PERIOD OF TIME (Roms. 11:25,26) so that He could turn His attention to the GENTILES {the "nations"/NWT} and He did this by commissioning Paul to GO TO THE GENTILE NATIONS and "reconcile" ALL of them -- as many who would believe -- back unto Himself. And in 1 Cor. 11, as you know, Paul taught ALL NATIONS/GENTILES the command of the Last Supper:

First read WHO 1st Corinthians is ADDRESSED TO:

1 Cor. 1:1-3: Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through God's will, and Sosthenes our brother to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to YOU (plural/NWT) who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, TOGETHER WITH ALL WHO EVERYWHERE ARE CALLING UPON THE NAME OF OUR LORD, JESUS CHRIST, THEIR LORD AND OURS... (NWT)

That is not TWO separate CLASSES of saints, or holy ones, but part of them were IN CORINITH and the rest of the believers were scattered EVERYWHERE ELSE, but they are ALL of the SAME CALLING.

Now, when Paul got to Chapter 11, did he change WHO his letter is addressed to by creating a "two class division" somewhere along the line? No. I promise you, it is a figment of the WT's imagination. (When you work up the motivation, start asking the Holy Spirit -- and not the supposedly "spirit-directed ORGANIZATION" which is NOT a biblical term, btw, but is a blaspheme, really -- to reveal it to you.)

So, when you get to chapter 11 and the Lord's Evening Meal, Paul is STILL talking to YOU/sanctified in union w/Christ, holy ones, TOGETHER WITH ALL WHO EVERWHERE CALL on the name of the Lord, THEIR LORD and OURS... (ie, ALL BELIEVERS, not a HEIRARCHY of believers, but ONE BODY, ONE LORD, ONE BAPTISM, etc. etc.)

1 Cor. 11:23 "For I received from the Lord that WHICH I ALSO DELIVERED TO YOU (plural/NWT): that the Lord Jesus on the [same] night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke [it] and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; DO THIS in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same manner [He] also [took] the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. THIS DO, as often as you drink [it,] in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes."

NOTE THE LAST VERSE: "For as often as YOU eat this bread and drink this cup, YOU proclaim the Lord's death till He comes." All the door-knocking in the world cannot replace what the Lord said in that verse. To "PROCLAIM" the Lord's death until He comes, ONE MUST PARTAKE of the bread and wine. Sincerely, I hope you will "GET THE SENSE" of these verses. By sitting and watching, you are IGNORING JESUS' WORDS RIGHT THERE.

Note that He did NOT SAY:

"For as often as you come and sit and WATCH NOBODY [depending on what KH you are in] eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes."

Please try reading the Bible WITHOUT WT FILTERS. You must learn to read it for WHAT IT SAYS and NOT ADD TO IT, w/WT "interpretations" (which, btw, is NO DIFFERENT than the POPE who "interprets" scripture for Catholics. Same boat, different river).

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3. As for Unity, those with the heavenly hope (ALL BELIEVING-in-Jesus-GENTILES and ALL BELIEVING-in-Jesus- JEWS), and those who will be "saved" during the tribulation (currently NON-believing Jews, and currently NON-believing Gentiles who "change their mind and believe" during the trib), YES, I agree Paul's and Jesus' words tie that together nicely, since Jesus (and the 12) were sent to preach solely to the Lost Sheep of the HOUSE of ISRAEL; and Paul was sent to preach to the GENTILE/NATIONS. ;-) It's very simple, very clear, and OH SO REFRESHING to understand scripture w/o WT-blinders! The "secret" is to simply ask: WHO is this Bible writer WRITING TO? Check the first few verses of ANY book, and you'll see.

Why are you cheating yourself out of your inheritance, the heavenly calling, just because you have allowed the WT to "convince" you that you are not worthy or not part of their "elite" group? It's a lie straight from the pits of hell, as they say, so don't fall for it!

Did you realize the Catholic hierarchy ALSO teaches THEIR people that they CANNOT possibly understand the BIBLE BY THEMSELVES outside of the "controlling"-RCC-elite? Did you realize the WT and the RCC had so much in "common"? The HOLY SPIRIT - Teacher, Comforter and Guide - is for ALL BELIEVERS. The Holy Spirit is NOT "disseminated" via an "ORG-channel." That, too, is a lie. You cannot "prove otherwise" from scripture without trying to string together a bunch of discombobulated scriptures taken out of context, and then blended up in a blender with "WT Doctrine" (ie, MAN-MADE IDEAS) thrown in. It's a disaster, and the lack of CLEAR, SIMPLE, REFRESHING TRUTH is totally lost and diluted and polluted in the process. Instead, if you drink of the blenderized concoction as taught by the WT you get a headache. ;-)

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Oh well, I never meant for this to be THIS long. Sorry about that!

Blessings,
/ag
abbagail

Greetings heathen, and thanks for your input and observations.

"Jesus did say that people would be judged based on their treatment of his brothers so there is something to the 2 class system."

Let's look at that verse:

Matthew 25:40 - "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did [it] to one of the least of these My brethren, you did [it] to Me.' "

First question is always: WHO was Jesus speaking to?

Answer: Matthew 15:24: "But He answered and said, "I was NOT sent EXCEPT to the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL."

Therefore, the "My Brethren" are JESUS' brothers, members of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL.

The only reason (that I can imagine) that you think Matt. 25 reveals a "two class system" is because the WT told you that's what the word "servant" in Matt. 25 means. But nowhere is a "servant CLASS" indicated. These were INDIVIDUAL SERVANTS:

Mat. 25:14 " For [the kingdom of heaven is] like a man traveling to a far country, [who] called his own SERVANTS and delivered his goods to them. 15 "And to ONE he gave five talents, to ANOTHER two, and to ANOTHER one, to each according to his OWN ability; and immediately he went on a journey."

ONE - ANOTHER - ANOTHER - OWN ability... these words indicate INDIVIDUAL servants. I don't see "class" system of servants there, do you? It's just another of WT's man-made interpretations to make the scripture "conform" to their theology, rather than them conforming to the scripture.

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You also wrote: "...but the 2 folds of sheep is being mis interpreted when it is talking about the gentiles allowed in the new covenant and would be equal sharers in the promise."

I just might agree with you on that but I'm not quite sure if you mean what I'm thinking. ;-)

The Gentiles ARE "grafted IN" as the wild branches onto the root-stock, and the root-stock in LITERAL ISRAEL.

Maybe this little "outline" will help as to what I am thinking...

1. MOSES - MT. SINAI - LAW COVENANT - ISRAEL - EARTHLY KINGDOM

2. PAUL - MT. SINAI - GRACE (unmerited favor) - GENTILES - HEAVENLY CALLING

(if there are "two classes" at all, it is these, but they are not really two "classes" as in one is better than the other, but that Certain Promises were made TO Israel, and Certain Promises were made TO believers in Jesus -- and God ALWAYS KEEPS HIS PROMISES -- ALL of them, from the OT to the NT. He has NOT permanently forsaken Israel: "Never May That Happen!" Paul says (Roms. 11:1).

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You also wrote: "The 144k I believe are martyrs . Mathew 25 . The great crowd will definately be around after the last 144k is resurrected and they will escape the great tribulation. never knowing death ."

I'm not sure if your mention of Matt. 25 goes with your first statement (re: 144k) or your second statement re: great crowd.

But either way, I agree the 144,000 will likely be martyrd for their witnessing work during the trib, Jewish (Rev.7:4-8) virgin men, who are already seen in heaven with Jesus by Rev. 14:1-5.

I also agree the great crowd (of converts who come to belief during the trib, out of all nations/tribes/tongues) are those who come through the great trib, and survive to see the Lord return with the holy ones/believers already in heaven (raptured) (Rev. 17:14; 19:8,11-14; Jude 1:14,15; Zech. 14:5c) and plant his feet on the Mt. of Olives (Zech. 14:4).

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Thank you everyone for the valuable input. This is good practice to "get in gear" for when I write up my notes to my still-JWs-friends.

/ag
jwfacts

Hi AG, I agree with you.
United in Worship is from 1983. Most JWs do not seem to know that the Bible is not for them, and that it is only for the 8000 leaders left of earth UUGHHH.
MAD - First ( this is NOT "Official WT"), you should realise that- just as Christ said- "the Meek Will Inherit the Earth"! ( Matt 5:5)
Most JWs also don't realise that the official teaching is that the Great Crowd does not inherit the earth and Mat 5:5 applies to Jesus and the Anointed (the earth belongs to them as their inheritance)
Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1 p.1201 “The anointed members of the Christian congregation are spoken of as having a heavenly inheritance, sharing Jesus’ inheritance as his “brothers.” (Eph 1:14; Col 1:12; 1Pe 1:4, 5) This includes the earth.—Mt 5:5.”
Watchtower 1958 March 1 p.139 “Will that mark the fulfillment of Jesus’ promise: “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth”? No, at least not primarily. Those words, first uttered by the psalmist David, apply first of all to the pre-eminently meek One, Jesus Christ , to whom his Father, Jehovah God, said: “Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your own possession.” Inheriting the earth is part of his reward for his meek and faithful course while a man.—Matt. 5:5, AS; Ps. 2:8. Sharing this inheritance with Jesus Christ will be his “bride,” those footstep followers of his, limited to 144,000 , who will receive a heavenly reward. (Rev. 14:1, 3) Thus the apostle Paul tells them: “If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ.” Jesus refers to these specially favored followers of his as a “little flock.” However, the principle enunciated at Matthew 5:5 applies also to Jesus’ other sheep who, as meek ones, will receive everlasting life on earth. How so? In that they will hold the earth in trust for Christ and his bride, permanent tenants, as it were.”
So many of the Watchtower doctrines don't make sense that average JW seems to form their own belief system and ignore anything that they don't like, such as the doctrine that billions of people will soon be killed.
Marcel

i dont get it abbagail.
you basically say the gentiles will reign over the jews?! or who in fact will have the earthly hope?
sorry, but for it sounds very weired and not refreshing. can you explain it for me a second time? =)

one thought pops into my mind anytime i read about these things.
is it logical to believe that the bible is so uncertain about its message when god sent it to us to SAVE us because he DONT want ANY of us to die? why have nearly 2000 years of bible interpretation didnt established a perfect view of the things?

for me it looks like the bible should be so easy, when god wants us to be saved (in the case the jws were right):

"THE HOLY BIBLE. Chapter 1 (of 1):
come on guys, here are the facts:
1. jehovah god is god
2. jesus is his son - two beings. he died for our sins.
3. the holy spirit is no person, but gods force.
4. we have 2 classes here. one are have heavenly hope other earthly.
5. the earth class is bigger and will show up when the end is near.
6. the heaven class will reign over paradise with jesus.
7. the individual knows to which class he/she belongs.
8. dont celebrate or use any pagan things or celebrations. only celebrate the last supper (bread and wine to remember the son once in a year - earthly hopers dont partake)
9. love your next like yourself (rules out all sins)
10. go preaching this message
11. dont use blood - even not for future uses of blood (only if you split it up before)
12. a new organisation will show up in the end - follow them even if they do unchristian things.
13. ah yes, satan, wants you to kick this out and go do your own thing. dont listen to him. follow this paper.
.
.
. [add some other doctrines i missed for now - dont exceed 20]
"

tadaa. everything could be so refreshing =)
lol

no seriously. i would expect that IMPORTANT letter more specific. hey look at the facts. EVEN the CHOSEN GODS ORGANISATION dont get the bible completely and has to change the doctrines continously.

marc
Marcel

thats impressiv to me. i always would have used Matthew 5:5 to "proove" that there must be two classes.

MEMORIAL Q: How does WT Explain Away 1 Cor. 10:17?

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